Women equal rights vs Women Reservation - Page 3

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

dont try and twist the meanings of my words.

That's an extremely lame excuse to ignore one's retort. One's words can only be twisted if they are taken out of context and arranged in a way to change the meaning of it. Souro had done none of it. He had quoted you word to word. Not a single statement had been altered; nor had a single word been remotely changed.

However, if you do feel that your words are being 'twisted', why not try to clarify it in what way that had been done? Stating 'Do-not-twist-the-meaning-of-my-words' doesn't show anything except for one's inability to counter a point.
Edited by PhoeniXof_Hades - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

if there would be anything new to debate upon i will, other wise i am out of this game of making personal comments.

Quite ironic. The one who started attacking an entire group of human beings simply on the basis of their gender, and making odious statements regarding them is now accusing someone else of "making personal comments".
Edited by PhoeniXof_Hades - 14 years ago

deleteEdited by SKoholic_Kapoor - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: PhoeniXof_Hades

It all depends where the men are coming from. In secular/democratic nations, men and women are treated more or less equally.
Thus you wouldn't find men (or, on that case, even women) from the secular countries making an uproar about inequality/discrimination amongst sexes. Besides, not all women are treated as second class citizens, (just as not all men are treated as the first class), thus your reasoning is supremely ineffective there.
only on paper. if there is no discrimination then y is the ratio of educated women so low? y is it less than men? care to clarify? y is the ratio of women in office so low when compared to men?
I cannot speak up about your real life; however, several men, in this very forum, had repeatedly spoke about the discrimination and inequality that are faced by women in conservative societies. And you know that, too. I can put up links that explicitly shows up that several male members here had constantly nagged about women's condition in ultra-conservative nations.
and it all vanishes when it comes to giving rights.


Get off your high horse, and your self-absorbed obsession that only you understand pains, sufferings and discrimination women goes through. For crap's sake, there are numerous male feminists and/or men who fights for women's rights. Now, are you going to tell me that they are closeted women in drag? Are all law-makers of liberal/democratic/secular countries women?

Most men are happy with giving women the rights they deserve. It is mainly a few bigoted individuals who do not. They are in the minority, but like most minorities, they are the most vocal ones, which is why it is them who gets all the attentions of the media, making it seem as though no men wants women to be treated as equally as them.
i will state again then tell me y there r less educated women than men? and less girls in offices and that too t higher posts than men r. u will get ur answers as to how many people want women's liberation.



Maybe you should try to put yourself at others shoes, and look through their eyes. This may clear up some of your alleged misconceptions, and explains you their positions.
well i may say the same for them. this situation is not to be seen as an NRI but from an indian's point of view.there is domestic violence, brides burnt bcoz of dowry. do u think this will all happen if girls r self reliant? and there r many people who do discriminate while giving jobs to women specially in small towns and some times in metros too.



You should probably Google the term 'equality', and get to know what exactly it is about, before you get onto with this subject. Absolutely none of what you had stated so far holds any resemblance or relevance to equality; if anything, your posts speaks of discrimination.

then u should go and Google what discrimination is. then tell me is there no discrimination with women? if there is then reservation is required if there is not then it is not. and i know ur will be that there is discrimination.

Originally posted by: PhoeniXof_Hades

Quite ironic. The one who started attacking an entire group of human beings simply on the basis of their gender, and making odious statements regarding them is now accusing someone else of "making personal comments".

😡i havent even started attacking any group bcoz i havent even commented about the treatment of women in the so called very conservative societies where they dont have human rights also, let alone demand for reservations. i have simply been stating facts and arguments. if u and think i was attacking the group then u should have pointed that out in that thread only. y stay mute there?

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

only on paper. if there is no discrimination then y is the ratio of educated women so low? y is it less than men? care to clarify?

The ratio of uneducated women is larger when it comes down to conservative countries, and rural/uneducated population of secular countries - and no one had disagreed with you on that count. When it comes down to the educated population, men and women are educated in equal respect. If you want to claim otherwise, show sources. As it is, you have been asked for sources several times here. Ignoring one's point is no way of getting ahead with a debate. Either show sources, or support your point with logical arguments, or else, withdraw your claim.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

y is the ratio of women in office so low when compared to men?

As had already been pointed out, the ratio isn't so much different when it comes down to the educated, liberal nations. The little difference that exists is mostly due to the fact that women prefers to stay in house (compared with men), and those who do want to apply for jobs, usually go for easier, milder ones, like being a teacher, etc, and no in office. We do NOT live in the age where one is judged based on his/her gender; yes we have few nations and few sects of countries who discriminates against one based on his gender, but that is relatively lower, and now-a-days, most democratic countries treat men and women equally.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

and it all vanishes when it comes to giving rights.

You have made that claim multiple times over here, but you are yet to provide me with any source for it. As it is, either support your point with sources or logics, or else take back your words. Repeating the same things over and over again isn't going to make up your point.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

i will state again then tell me y there r less educated women than men? and less girls in offices and that too t higher posts than men r. u will get ur answers as to how many people want women's liberation.

You have been answered - not once, not twice but several times, and that too, by several members. As had already been pointed out, repeating the same thing over and over again makes no difference. If anything, it shows up how shallow one's arguments and points are.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

well i may say the same for them. this situation is not to be seen as an NRI but from an indian's point of view.there is domestic violence, brides burnt bcoz of dowry. do u think this will all happen if girls r self reliant? and there r many people who do discriminate while giving jobs to women specially in small towns and some times in metros too.

Um, who is denying that such domestic violence do not at all exists? Maybe you should read people's posts and try to grasp their point of view before you start jumping at their throats with your self-absorbed assumptions. Everyone here (at least in this forum) who favors equality amongst sexes. If anything, it was you who claimed the opposite. You are the one who bashed and attacked the ENTIRE male population for whatever happens to women. You have INSULTED the entire male population for discrimination women faces.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

then u should go and Google what discrimination is. then tell me is there no discrimination with women? if there is then reservation is required if there is not then it is not. and i know ur will be that there is discrimination.

Thanks a bunch for the advice; I know it from top to bottom what discrimination is. Which is why I have stated it that sex discrimination does occur in few places (in fact everyone who had debated so far did agree with that point), but that does not mean every male discriminates against women (as you generalized the entire male population of subjugating women).
Edited by PhoeniXof_Hades - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

😡i havent even started attacking any group bcoz i havent even commented about the treatment of women in the so called very conservative societies where they dont have human rights also, let alone demand for reservations. i have simply been stating facts and arguments. if u and think i was attacking the group then u should have pointed that out in that thread only. y stay mute there?

I was speaking about this VERY thread. As Souro had very well pointed out, your memory seems to be failing. This is what you have stated on your first post:

[quote] which is very much expected from them as y would they want to build tough competition for themselves and y would they want to make it tougher for themselves to get jobs.  besides y would they want women to stand eye to eye in front of them at home as well as work now? [/quote]

You have attacked the entire male population as thought they all subjugate women. So DO NOT pretend that you haven't.

Oh, and no, you haven't stated "facts". Not a single one. You have, if anything, stated assumptions and showed us your state of mind.
Edited by PhoeniXof_Hades - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: souro

Maybe your memory is failing you but no I didn't say that women waste time at office. The only thing I ever said about women at work is that they too involve in office politics and that was in reply to your post blaming men of all the office politics and getting promotions.

then y is it that there r very less female professionals at the higher level and more at the lower level. Y r they not given bigger responsibilities? And there r many educated people like many on this forums only who do not acknowledge contribution of women towards society. See for IIT and IIM only how many girls actually do get admission there? Actually how many appear at the entrance exam?

Just because there is less female presence at the top even now doesn't mean it's a male conspiracy. Sometimes it happens because women opt out of longer working hours and moving around too much.

And as far as appearing for entrance exams are concerned, ain't it the responsibility of the female students to appear for such exams?? Why do you want to make men a scapegoat for that too??

 well this is pure prejudice. i have seen men dallying around in smoking zone like anything, they know more gossip than women do, still women waste time in offices when they fully concentrate and try to finish the target so that they can rush home. for men they dont have to cook food at home so no harm in wasting time and then waiting late. showing the boss they r doing more work. and these r the excuses given at the time of performance appraisal. therefore men get promotions so fast not women. not bcoz theyr r more competent.
this is what u said and there fore i said how it is that women do work equally well but they dont get their share of promotions.

This is what you said:
[quote=angelic_devil]Today also there is a lot of prejudice going on. Its is easier for men to get a job than women. At the lower level I would say no not much difference it would make. but when it comes to higher posts and giving bigger responsibilities all the politics start.[/quote]

This was my reply:
[quote=souro]As if women don't involve themselves in office politics. This is a lame excuse to say women deserve reservation or preferential treatment. A better way is to educate children from a very young age that everyone deserves an equal chance and the most deserving should be chosen based on merit.[/quote]
so whats wrong with that? this shows that women dont get their due in modern offices too not bcoz they r not deserving but bcoz they r not given that bcoz they r purposely not given responsibilities. u see women in all not so lucrative jobs but very few at the top levels.

And you claimed several more things:
[quote=angelic_devil]and ofcourse they r more  competent than men when they r taking care of home,work, children all at the same time.[/quote]
[quote=angelic_devil]doing multiple things equally good is being more competent than men. if men can do one job in a specified time with this much quality and a women does that along with few more things giving the same quality then y should they not be considered more competent.[/quote]
I agreed with you that in general women are better at multi-tasking. But those women who are working obviously devote less time to work and child if you didn't know. No one can possibly give the same quality when doing multiple things which they can give when concentrating only on one task.

u mean to say that women work for less than 8-9 hours in the offices? and i think they certainly spend if not more then equal time with children that men do. infact children r still closer to working women than to men. now u r trying to say that women do not give the same quality of work as men do at work place? if we go by that logic, then we should atleast have single women at the top positions but we dont have that too.first of all i dont agree to this logic only. women sacrifice their family life to work. they also work for 8 hrs and so does men and also give same quality of output. so what base u have of saying that women cannot do ethings eqally well i dont know after agreeing all this time that women r good at multi tasking.

[quote=angelic_devil]ya in the name of proving they r made to put in much much more efforts than men can ever put in.[/quote]
That's an outright lie and I don't know why you're writing such lies over here.

this is what u wrote and replied to it.
If they feel that they deserve it, then they should prove it, why all these begging for reservations.
ya in the name of proving they r made to put in much much more efforts than men can ever put in. hell all need to prove it y only women men too need to prove it. u discriminate in the name of gender?
so dont twist what i said and what i did not.

[quote=angelic_devil]i dont feel any shame also to say that i am biased towards women. [/quote]

First you said that privileges is justified. Now you're saying privileges are not justified. Your support for privileges seems to change with the gender.

nahi ji 😲 i only stated the reasons y privileges are not justified for men. and i am not saying give preference to any gender. treat all equally but first reach that equality.😉 i dont feel any shame also to say that i am biased towards women.

did u not see the wink saying a statement in a humourous manner? so stop twisting.

And here is another quote about work and office and why there is less female presence at the top. If you read it you'll see it wasn't me who was bashing women but you who was bitching about men:

[quote=souro]Just because there is less female presence at the top even now doesn't mean it's a male conspiracy. Sometimes it happens because women opt out of longer working hours and moving around too much.[/quote]
[quote=angelic_devil]god how i was expecting such a comment sorry waiting for such a comment. u took too long actually. well this is pure prejudice. i have seen men dallying around in smoking zone like anything, they know more gossip than women do, still women waste time in offices when they fully concentrate and try to finish the target so that they can rush home. for men they dont have to cook food at home so no harm in wasting time and then waiting late. showing the boss they r doing more work. and these r the excuses given at the time of performance appraisal. therefore men get promotions so fast not women. not bcoz theyr r more competent.[/quote]
so what is wrong with that? i asked u y there is less presence of women at top level of management. and u said that it happens bcoz they dont work for longs hours and move around too much. which is actually a very lame excuse for intentional discrimination.

this i what u said.

You said you're in HR and I really feel fortunate that you don't work in my company doing my appraisals.
[quote=angelic_devil]Oh if I had the sole power to do appraisals, I would grill men more and keep a record of each minute spent in smoking zone chatting.[/quote]

[quote=souro]Those who are poor, in most of the cases they don't even have the money to keep the male child in school. Which is why I said just make it free for them and also compulsory.[/quote]
[quote=angelic_devil]Ya thats fine. I agree education should be made free and compulsory but only for girls other wise as u said the rich people will get more benefit out of this. The lower middle class people invest more on educating their son and girl just plain graduation or not even that.[/quote]
whats wrong in this?

[quote=angelic_devil]no is so dumb to put a person 12th pass in a job of an MD. only chauvinist men can do that not women.[/quote]
this is  what i said.
And how do you propose to achieve that with only reservation and no education?? You can't fill up college seats with girls who went to school till fourth standard. Similarly, it is not possible to give a job that requires a Master degree to a woman who has only completed her bachelors.(this out of the blues random startement made me say this) Then that will essentially mean that it's the educated women from well to do family who will benefit from the reservation. But these women are already treated as equal, so why do they need reservation.
when did i say that give only reservation and no education. i am telling to give free education and reservation for women.now u r putting words in my mouth. i not in any of posts said to give a masters degree job to a 12th pass. i am for free or subsidised education for women, especially in rural areas and give them jobs accordingly. no is so dumb to put a person 12th pass in a job of an MD. only chauvinist men can do that not women.

[quote=angelic_devil]access to resources is not there bcoz people dont want women to be self reliant. men dont want to make things tougher for themselves by creating competition.[/quote]
i have been saying only one thing and only one thing that indian people have the mentality not to teach girls thats the reason we have only 53%  who know how to read an write only. so whats wrong in that? is that not true. is this not the mentality? and dont say it was 50 years back.dont u watch balika vadhu? dont u see how that dadisa always keep telling that anandi is more intelligent than my grand son and there fore will go ahead of him? and this is real very much real.
[quote=angelic_devil] the answer is people still have discriminating mentality even highly educated people. and its not bcoz of ignorance or tradition, but cunning mentality. men dont want women to get equal status, they dont want to create more competition for themselves. they know girls r more intelligent which is proved year after year from the board exam results.[/quote]
so? giving reservation will take away a part of the seats for which men can contest forso natually there is insecurity among them. they dont want to make things tough for them which is  very much logical.
i am tired of repeating myself.

this is for  souros and gangs reference. feel free to ask more clarifications.

Blue.

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

then y is it that there r very less female professionals at the higher level and more at the lower level. Y r they not given bigger responsibilities? And there r many educated people like many on this forums only who do not acknowledge contribution of women towards society. See for IIT and IIM only how many girls actually do get admission there? Actually how many appear at the entrance exam?

Please show your sources where exactly this is happening (assuming both genders are equal in qualification)? How is there "very less" female professionals at the higher levels? We have female doctors, female teachers, female lawyers, female engineers, female scientists, female writers, female presidents. There are certain jobs and works which are best suited for men compared with women, and there are jobs which men are more capable of doing than women. The numbers of female professionals might be lower, compared with men, but this has got more to do with their qualification than social discrimination.and their household matters. This might be a good reason why there are less female professionals compared to male. Furthermore, women are more house-working than men; they would give way more attentions to their offspring,

 well this is pure prejudice. i have seen men dallying around in smoking zone like anything, they know more gossip than women do, still women waste time in offices when they fully concentrate and try to finish the target so that they can rush home. for men they dont have to cook food at home so no harm in wasting time and then waiting late. showing the boss they r doing more work. and these r the excuses given at the time of performance appraisal. therefore men get promotions so fast not women. not bcoz theyr r more competent.
this is what u said and there fore i said how it is that women do work equally well but they dont get their share of promotions.

Guess what? Studies and statistics had showed it beyond doubt that both men and women are equally likely to  'miss' their offices and do irrelevant things. It's not only men who indulges into 'smoking zone' or 'gossips'. Neither is it only women. Once again, you are making broader generalization regarding an entire group, without even looking at its full picture.

And yes, you are correct there - one reason why women cannot spend so much time in working outside like men is due to their own works inside their house. This doesn't mean they are chained inside their house. They are voluntarily giving off their time to spend it with their kids, teaching/educating them, cooking, etc.

so whats wrong with that? this shows that women dont get their due in modern offices too not bcoz they r not deserving but bcoz they r not given that bcoz they r purposely not given responsibilities. u see women in all not so lucrative jobs but very few at the top levels.

For the last time, either provide sources to support your viewpoint, or take back your words. Men and women are treated equally in offices in democratic countries. I have seen and know more than enough women who works in higher level.

u mean to say that women work for less than 8-9 hours in the offices? and i think they certainly spend if not more then equal time with children that men do. infact children r still closer to working women than to men. now u r trying to say that women do not give the same quality of work as men do at work place? if we go by that logic, then we should atleast have single women at the top positions but we dont have that too.first of all i dont agree to this logic only. women sacrifice their family life to work. they also work for 8 hrs and so does men and also give same quality of output. so what base u have of saying that women cannot do ethings eqally well i dont know after agreeing all this time that women r good at multi tasking.

Women are good at multi-tasking just as men are. If you think a women can equally raise his children and work in her office, with the same dedication, then men, too, can work in offices and raise children. Yeah, I know, many are going to bite their teeth at my words, but if it is possible for a women to work outside and yet raise their children properly (something they are best at), why can a man not do the same?

so dont twist what i said and what i did not.

No one's twisting your words. You have been quoted words to words. And you have been shown to be wrong, and in some case, right down discriminatory, with your very words.


so what is wrong with that? i asked u y there is less presence of women at top level of management. and u said that it happens bcoz they dont work for longs hours and move around too much. which is actually a very lame excuse for intentional discrimination.

this i what u said.

You have been answered that multiple times. And yet, you seem to be begging for an answer (the one which would fit your state of mind; sort of like "Keep answering the question, until when you answer what I want you to!". For the last time, you should stop that.

whats wrong in this?

Except that, that just 'freeing' the education for a particular gender (female) and not for the other (male) is right down discriminating. If you cannot see it, then honestly, I have nothing further to add.

when did i say that give only reservation and no education. i am telling to give free education and reservation for women.

For what reason? Men/women both should be granted free education, or one at all. That's discriminatory, pure and simple.

now u r putting words in my mouth. i not in any of posts said to give a masters degree job to a 12th pass. i am for free or subsidised education for women, especially in rural areas and give them jobs accordingly. no is so dumb to put a person 12th pass in a job of an MD. only chauvinist men can do that not women.

Anyone can do that, actually. It has and is founded out that men/women cheat and does equal amount of immoral and chauvinistic acts. It's not only men. It's not only women. So, for the love of Jesus, stop trying to put women in the highest pedestal, and men in the lowest. Both are equal footing, why discriminate against men only?

so? giving reservation will take away a part of the seats for which men can contest forso natually there is insecurity among them. they dont want to make things tough for them which is  very much logical.

And that's justifiable. Why would the right of a men, who had worked hard, be taken away for women who haven't done anything, but achieved everything through "reservation"? Do you realize how discriminatory and unfair that is? How would you have felt if the same was done for men, i.e. giving seats to men for reservation, and hard-working women being left off? But oh, of course, that would have been "discriminatory", but when the same is being done in favor of women, then it is all "fair", no?. *roll eyes*

Edited by PhoeniXof_Hades - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: souro

Of course it will infuriate you. How come not everyone is so weak to play the victim and ask for favours. Everyone should conform with your ideas, afterall you have decided in your mind that women are superior and men are of no use. Men are stupid, cunning and they are out to get all the jobs in the world. They deserve everything bad.

Equality is definitely not on your mind, why do we need to look any further. Someone who believes in equality won't be supporting reservations and undue favours.
And haven't you spoken enough about how superior women are with their special abilities and how men only waste time at work by gossiping at the smoking zone. Not the ideal person lecturing others about equality.

Very well pointed out. 👏