Debate Mansion

SEXUALITY debate: Why can't people live their life - Page 7

TheUltimate thumbnail
Anniversary 13 Thumbnail Group Promotion 2 Thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago

We are going in circles. You seem to hold a view that marriage is not about kinship. Well, I disagree. I would expect that you tell me what are you basing your opinion on. You mentioned that since we have already introduced "variations" to the marriage, add one more. Sorry, but that is a straw man. You have not offered why do you believe that marriage is not about kids.

I noticed that you did not reply if there is a problem with the union (or whatever they are calling it), why not fix that? If two lines are of different lengths, either the smaller line can be made bigger or the bigger line can be cut short.. which one do you prefer?
 
You might think that you responded to my question about why gays want to adhere to existing standards but I am still unclear. I asked if it is about the advantages that married hetero couples enjoy and you said yes. So, well, let's put those advantages to their "union".
Why the marriage which traditionally has been between a man and a woman and vast majority of marriages are like that. Since we live in a democratic country, majority rules.
 
Regarding polygamy, yes the idea is incomprehensible. Man.. my head is spinning with few easy combinations that can be called a marriage:
1 male-1female, 1 male - multiple females, multiple males - 1 female, male-male, female-female, multiple males - 1 male, multiple females - 1 female, 1 male - multiple males, 1 female - multiple females, multiple males - multiple males, multiple females - multiple females...
Oh - and did I mention that they all do not have to be human species? I am sure I left out many possible combinations, but I am sure you get the point.
 
For your last question - system might not be perfect. As I have told multiple times, let's improve it. Why modify the other system?

Created

Last reply

Replies

259

Views

35103

Users

40

Likes

212

Frequent Posters

Summer3 thumbnail
Anniversary 16 Thumbnail Group Promotion 7 Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
In most muslim countries homosexuality is a criminal offense it seems and in Malaysia too it is a very big major crime.
 
Read the case of the politician Anwar Ibrahim (former DPM) who was jailed 9 years for sodomy.
 
 
 
 
 
Rehanism thumbnail
Anniversary 13 Thumbnail Group Promotion 4 Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

We are going in circles. You seem to hold a view that marriage is not about kinship. Well, I disagree. I would expect that you tell me what are you basing your opinion on. You mentioned that since we have already introduced "variations" to the marriage, add one more. Sorry, but that is a straw man. You have not offered why do you believe that marriage is not about kids.

This is a personal and relative matter. There is no standard definition of the "purpose" of marriage in any law. Some people, mostly those under arranged marriage, marry to have kids and family. Others marry mainly out of love, intimacy and compatibility. We might safely assume that homosexual marriages are not arranged marriages. They marry because they wish to spend their life together and they want their relation ship to be recognized by the law and tolerated the by society as that is their constitutional right. Besides, legally recognized relationships provide several benefits like property rights, medical security, insurance etc which are not available in live-in relationships.

I noticed that you did not reply if there is a problem with the union (or whatever they are calling it), why not fix that? If two lines are of different lengths, either the smaller line can be made bigger or the bigger line can be cut short.. which one do you prefer?
 
You might think that you responded to my question about why gays want to adhere to existing standards but I am still unclear. I asked if it is about the advantages that married hetero couples enjoy and you said yes. So, well, let's put those advantages to their "union".
Why the marriage which traditionally has been between a man and a woman and vast majority of marriages are like that. Since we live in a democratic country, majority rules.

Wrong. We live in a Representative Democracy which promises equality to all irrespective of majority or minority and hence the law is obliged to safeguard and recognize the rights of every individual - whether they belong/subscribe to any community, caste, religion or sexual orientation. Secondly the law doesn't understand or recognize any "traditional definition" of marriage, which are purely subjective, nor does it require couples to produce kids. In fact the law might intercede and change traditions if required, but compromising on individual rights just to regard traditions is purely unconstitutional.
 
Regarding polygamy, yes the idea is incomprehensible. Man.. my head is spinning with few easy combinations that can be called a marriage:
1 male-1female, 1 male - multiple females, multiple males - 1 female, male-male, female-female, multiple males - 1 male, multiple females - 1 female, 1 male - multiple males, 1 female - multiple females, multiple males - multiple males, multiple females - multiple females...
Oh - and did I mention that they all do not have to be human species? I am sure I left out many possible combinations, but I am sure you get the point.
 
For your last question - system might not be perfect. As I have told multiple times, let's improve it. Why modify the other system?


TheUltimate thumbnail
Anniversary 13 Thumbnail Group Promotion 2 Thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
This content was originally posted by: Rehanism

This is a personal and relative matter. There is no standard definition of the "purpose" of marriage in any law. Some people, mostly those under arranged marriage, marry to have kids and family. Others marry mainly out of love, intimacy and compatibility. We might safely assume that homosexual marriages are not arranged marriages. They marry because they wish to spend their life together and they want their relation ship to be recognized by the law and tolerated the by society as that is their constitutional right. Besides, legally recognized relationships provide several benefits like property rights, medical security, insurance etc which are not available in live-in relationships.

The very base of any marriage, traditionally speaking was to have kids, kinship, management of heirdom etc.. That is what I have been able to find. So, to prove it otherwise, the onus lies on the opposing committee to bring forth some facts and verifiable evidences.
 
Arranged or love marriage is not  a point of discussion. Marriage is marriage.
 
Now, can the married couples decide not to have kids or can they not have kids? Of course. That still does not change the basic purpose of a marriage. Are those heterosexual couples who know they cannot conceive allowed to marry? Yes. As I have stated before, consider it as a loophole if you must.
 
So, as it has been established, the purpose of marriage for gay community is as you put "benefits like property rights, medical security, insurance etc". I have told multiple times before, if those are the issues, we should work on those issues and fix their "union".
 
It is as wrong as me calling you wrong without any data to back myself up.
This content was originally posted by: Rehanism

We live in a Representative Democracy which promises equality to all irrespective of majority or minority and hence the law is obliged to safeguard and recognize the rights of every individual - whether they belong/subscribe to any community, caste, religion or sexual orientation. Secondly the law doesn't understand or recognize any "traditional definition" of marriage, which are purely subjective, nor does it require couples to produce kids. In fact the law might intercede and change traditions if required, but compromising on individual rights just to regard traditions is purely unconstitutional.

Your first point is a classic deflection. No, no one is saying that let's suppress gays like how in the past people were suppressed because of their religioin, caste, race, financial background, sexual orientation etc..
I wonder why this issue gets voted down in bleeding blue California every time it gets out to public.
 
Secondly, what are you trying to say by stating that law doesn't understand or recognize any "traditional definition"?? If so, then what's this discussion about?
Yes, the law does not require couples to produce kids... but well, who knew when the union of marriage was established in good faith that it would have to go around explaining its purpose.
By the way, law also does not require that incestous marriages be  not recognized... so, what is your point?
 
Again, one more time, if one system is broken, let's fix  that broken system instead of changing the other working system.
Rehanism thumbnail
Anniversary 13 Thumbnail Group Promotion 4 Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
I didn't quite understand what are you trying to say. You are against terming homosexual union as marriage or you are against legal recognition of that union or are you against homosexual union itself. Because as far as the established laws are concerned, legally recognized relationship itself is marriage. Law doesn't recognize live-in or any such romantic relationship as official relationship, be it homosexual or heterosexual.

So if we are to get an official status for a homosexual union we are to call it marriage - in legal terms if not in traditional. And if law doesn't require couples to produce kids, then what exactly should stop it from recognizing homosexual marriage? The constitution is hardly interested in traditional obligations of marriage or what religious scripture speaks or how it defines marriage. The legal definition of marriage is entirely different from religious/traditional definitions and hence there is no legal obligation not to recognize homosexual marriage!!

You were wrong to assume that in a democracy majority beliefs/traditions are favoured. That happens in populist states or in theocracies. In secular representative democracies every individual's interest hold equal priority and the law of the land is obliged to safeguard everyone's constitutional rights irrespective of their background/sexuality/community. The right to marry is one such constitutional right. And just because they are homosexual, they should be deprived of the right? Isn't that discrimination!


Regarding incestuous marriage, I normally have no problem with marriage of second cousins. In fact several traditions too permit it and it is their personal matter. Overall I think man has made traditions. Traditions do not make man and hence if certain traditions are coming in the way of progress and freedom then I guess its better to amend our viewpoints and adopt a broader outlook rather than compromising on people's basic rights.
Edited by Rehanism - 12 years ago
-Believe- thumbnail
Anniversary 18 Thumbnail Group Promotion 7 Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 12 years ago
 Dear Lord please grant me one day of freedom from the law so I can set a few lesbian people straight πŸ˜‰When someone says I'm so pissed off I can't even think straight anymore does that mean they are having homosexual thoughts? πŸ˜²πŸ˜†
 
Arwen11 thumbnail
Anniversary 15 Thumbnail Group Promotion 6 Thumbnail + 4
Posted: 12 years ago
Rumors are rife that Jackie Shroff has come out of the closet 😲 I never ever figured him for a homosexual .. Some other bollywood walas yess but not him 

I hope this is picked up by some accredited news agency soon... I would really like to know one way or the other ... but this is pretty wow..(except that part which said he might leave his wife and children)

Can i post links from other forums here? πŸ˜•?
Posted: 12 years ago
This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

We are going in circles. 



Wouldn't deny, but I can't help it if my points are just plain ignored.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

You seem to hold a view that marriage is not about kinship. Well, I disagree.



No, I really don't. If anything, as has already been explained, I view marriage to be more than just being about kinship. That does not imply I meant marriage to be not about kinship at all.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

You mentioned that since we have already introduced "variations" to the marriage, add one more. Sorry, but that is a straw man.



The point was, traditional views aren't always the best. Let's say it would be unfair of anyone to hold women from voting because of what was traditionally thought as best or was just the norm.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

You have not offered why do you believe that marriage is not about kids.



Why would I offer arguments about what I did not even claim? I never said marriage is not about kids at all, just that it concerns more than that. I can provide arguments in its favor if you wish.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

I noticed that you did not reply if there is a problem with the union (or whatever they are calling it), why not fix that?



And I notice you have, for the second time here, IGNORED my post on the differences between civil unions and marriage. Here you go: https://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htm


This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

If two lines are of different lengths, either the smaller line can be made bigger or the bigger line can be cut short.. which one do you prefer?



The former, which is exactly what is being asked here: marriage (longer line = higher advantages and rights) is not being asked to be changed to civil unions (smaller line = lesser advantages and rights). Rather, civil unions are being asked to be changed to marriage.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

You might think that you responded to my question about why gays want to adhere to existing standards but I am still unclear.



Unclear about what? Already explained and sourced it that there are differences between civil unions and marriage, and for more information, look below.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

I asked if it is about the advantages that married hetero couples enjoy and you said yes. So, well, let's put those advantages to their "union".



Well, how many times, exactly? You not only ignored that aspect of my post twice herebut also did not bother quoting my section where I gave you the link differentiating between a civil union and marriage. Well, if it's not much, then scroll up, and check the link provided. I have directly given it once before, and then linked it in another post. That's the third time going there. We will carry it from there.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

Why the marriage which traditionally has been between a man and a woman and vast majority of marriages are like that. Since we live in a democratic country, majority rules.



I think return_to_hades explained it quite well:

[quote] Leaders in democracy are elected by a majority. Legislation in democracy requires majority. However, the notion that democracy is "majority rules" is a mistaken notion. That is why minority rights, special interests are center place in democracy. That is why democracies have judicial and executive branches that don't answer to majorities or constituents to ensure "fairness". There are checks and balances against each other. The pillars of democracy are liberty, equality and fraternity NOT majority. That is why democratic decisions should not merely uphold majority but embody liberty, equality and fraternity. And yes these concepts are fluid and perceptions change with time. 

There are other systems like oligarchy, tyranny, anarchy etc where the largest and most powerful groups of population vie for control.  [/quote]

Source

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

Regarding polygamy, yes the idea is incomprehensible.



Well, we are on the same page there, then. Yes, the idea of group marriage is incomprehensible to me, too - but I am going to give it a chance and listen to their side of the argument even if I have a preconceived notion (say negative in this case) from before.

But er, I was talking about polyamory. Polygamy is one form of group marriage.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

Man.. my head is spinning with few easy combinations that can be called a marriage:

1 male-1female, 1 male - multiple females, multiple males - 1 female, male-male, female-female, multiple males - 1 male, multiple females - 1 female, 1 male - multiple males, 1 female - multiple females, multiple males - multiple males, multiple females - multiple females...

Oh - and did I mention that they all do not have to be human species? I am sure I left out many possible combinations, but I am sure you get the point.



This is the biggest inductive leap you take when comparing consensual relationships between adults with that of animals. Animals can't provide reasonable consent, so no, they can't be compared with homosexual relationships or even group marriage or orgy.

This content was originally posted by: TheUltimate

For your last question - system might not be perfect. As I have told multiple times, let's improve it. Why modify the other system?



Finally! Yes! Agreed!

But then, if civil unions are improved and given all the rights as marriage does, then civil unions will become marriage, just with a different name, so what's the difference? I think people at both ends are fighting a desperate battle. The fight should be for equality rather than name. But at the same time, if names are kept different, but equal rights are given, then what difference does it matter if the name is also made similar?

Edited by Beyond_the_Veil - 12 years ago
return_to_hades thumbnail
Anniversary 18 Thumbnail Group Promotion 7 Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 12 years ago
This content was originally posted by: Arwen.

Rumors are rife that Jackie Shroff has come out of the closet 😲 I never ever figured him for a homosexual .. Some other bollywood walas yess but not him 


I hope this is picked up by some accredited news agency soon... I would really like to know one way or the other ... but this is pretty wow..(except that part which said he might leave his wife and children)

Can i post links from other forums here? πŸ˜•?



http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/celebrity/confession-jackie-shroff-is-gay_101749.htm

This?
Arwen11 thumbnail
Anniversary 15 Thumbnail Group Promotion 6 Thumbnail + 4
Posted: 12 years ago
This content was originally posted by: return_to_hades



http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/celebrity/confession-jackie-shroff-is-gay_101749.htm

This?


I meant the Bollywood Forum thread where this topic is being discussed ... 

@Link - woah 😲 Uptil now it was only some gossip sites carrying this news ... Now that some more mainstream sites are doing this, we may know for sure one way or the other..