Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 2

This content was originally posted by: souro

I don't believe in being too scrupulous when it comes to dealing with other nations. It's far more important to deal on equal terms.

The allegations against Ms. Khobragade were that she caused a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented, and materially false and fraudulent statements to be made, to the US department of state in support of a visa application. Keepinmg that context in mind, what constitutes "equal terms" here? Did you already decide that Ms. Khobragade is not guilty of the said allegations which is why you want to fradulently charge an innocent US official (any innocent US official for that matter) currently serving in India? Would you like to share that information that exonerates Ms. Khobragade?

This content was originally posted by: souro

And no, I'm not calling the maid stupid because she is a lowly paid worker. She might be the CEO of All Indian Maids Association and a member of mensa for all I care. The premise would still remain the same. No govt. will want to jeopardise relation with a big trade partner over a single person and that too for an inconsequential incident.

What is inconsequential here? The alleged crime (visa fraud and worker exploitation) or the crime in comparison to what is purportedly at stake? Is there a precedent based on which you are conjecturing that bilateral relations would be affected? If anything, isn't this the second instance, in recent times, of a senior Indian foreign service officer (Neena Malhotra being the other) in New York facing charges linked to human trafficking?

This content was originally posted by: K.Universe.

The allegations against Ms. Khobragade were that she caused a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented, and materially false and fraudulent statements to be made, to the US department of state in support of a visa application. Keepinmg that context in mind, what constitutes "equal terms" here? Did you already decide that Ms. Khobragade is not guilty of the said allegations which is why you want to fradulently charge an innocent US official (any innocent US official for that matter) currently serving in India? Would you like to share that information that exonerates Ms. Khobragade?




What is inconsequential here? The alleged crime (visa fraud and worker exploitation) or the crime in comparison to what is purportedly at stake? Is there a precedent based on which you are conjecturing that bilateral relations would be affected? If anything, isn't this the second instance, in recent times, of a senior Indian foreign service officer (Neena Malhotra being the other) in New York facing charges linked to human trafficking?

Mr K - I don't think anyone is giving a clean chit to the diplomat but it is the way the arrest was conducted and the after conduct which is drawing the flak. i won't comment on her innocence- I see there is a discrepancy as far as documentations presented is concerned. She did had a legal case going against the said employee in India and have earned an injunction which prevented the maid from approaching law in US since she was absconding. Not sure how US laws sees it , but the law of the land should prevail However as the details of her arrest have come- she was strip-searched , placed with hard criminals with some of them being convicted terrorists and many more inhuman behavior is reported.  If I am not wrong she has be accused of human trafficking as well, which I fail to understand since she duly reported the escape of her employee and was taking legal steps towards it.

The case was handled quite insensitively by the US authorities. The treatment meted out to the Indian diplomat was quite inappropriate to the gravity of the alleged crime and her diplomatic status. The plea given by a US State Department official was that the said Indian  diplomat wasnt covered by the VCCR (Vienna convention on Consular Relations) in this matter because "the Indian Deputy Consul General enjoys immunity from the jurisdiction of US courts only with respect to acts performed in the exercise of consular functions". However, regardless of any Visa fraud allegedly committed by the diplomat, US has violated international law on two counts at least, once by arresting a foreign consular officer and a second time by handcuffing the consular officer. The US clearly does not consider the appointment of personal employees by a consular official important to the execution of consular functions whereas the Indians would differ. The functional necessity of a housemaid by a diplomat who is also a young mother with two kids could be debated.

The maid in question certainly does not come across as a victim to me. If anyone it is the diplomat who was caught unawares by her scheming maid. Obtaining US citizenship by any means seems to have been the maid's  goal . Was she being underpaid and exploited? I don't think so. She had accepted the pay and service terms before leaving for US. In all probability her travelling expenses, health insurance, food, lodging, clothing  and other amenities were paid for by her employers and did not get accounted  for while calculating her wages. Its been calculated that at $ 9.75 per hour plus the overtime services that would be expected due to travelling at short notices with the diplomat and late working hrs of the official, the maid's wages could exceed the Indian diplomat's salary!

The Indian authorities are rightly incensed at the treatment by the US authorities. They had sought help from US in tracing the absconding maid but instead were greeted with getting their official handcuffed, strip searched and confined with common criminals with total disregard to her diplomatic status. The Indian counterparts would be very much within their rights to retaliate in a similar manner . All the same, resorting to false charges is highly unacceptable no matter what the provocation.  Indian authorities would have no trouble in retaliating through fair means should they decide to do so. They could start by frisking all the US diplomats at the airport as a security measure. They could also retaliate by not sparing those guilty of breaking any Indian domestic law. I wonder what happens if a US diplomat is found guilty and charged under the controversial section 377 . Would diplomatic immunity apply in that case! Those who do not believe in diplomacy do not deserve any themselves. Bilateral relations are bound to suffer.

Edited by _Angie_ - 10 years ago

Second you Angie!

This content was originally posted by: souro

Ms. Khobragade is an Indian diplomat. She is not a terrorist or someone who would've fled or posed immediate danger.

The diplomatic security in US apparently followed standard procedures when arresting Ms. Khobragade. She submitted materially false and fraudulent documents and what ensued is how the law in US deals with such serious charges.

This content was originally posted by: souro

She draws salary by Indian standards, not US standards .

Ms. Khobragade's salary is immaterial to the discussion on hand.

This content was originally posted by: souro

Her maid had fled and Indian court had issued a warrant against her. .

A witch-hunt initiated by the influential Khobragades, backed by a banana republic government. However, this doesn't affect the allegations themselves leveled against Ms. Khobragade, which are a) causing a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented b) making materially false and fraudulent statements.

This content was originally posted by: souro

In light of all this, they could've handled the situation better even if they decided to act on the maid's complaint. But they decided to act high handed by arresting and handcuffing her in public and then strip searching her.

They took her to a cell. Again, standard procedures. Surely, you don't expect them to take her to Ritz Carlton?


 

This content was originally posted by: souro

And that in my book makes US diplomats in India fair game.

You are being evasive in defining what constitutes a "fair game" in this scenario. I gave you the context and asked you to present your version of "equal terms" when dealing with the US diplomats currently posted in India. Sure, if they did a crime, they will have to do the time. But you were advocating arresting them, even if it means on unfounded accusations, which is what I questioned and which is what you are back-pedaling on. It's simple. Complete the sentence. "I am in favor of arresting US diplomats posted in India, even if it means I have to do it on false premises, because _________________________"

This content was originally posted by: _Angie_

The case was handled quite insensitively by the US authorities. 

We all have our opinions on what is sensitive and what is insensitive. I will trust the diplomatic security to do their job.

The treatment meted out to the Indian diplomat was quite inappropriate to the gravity of the alleged crime and her diplomatic status.

What treatment? She was arrested and then released on bail. Due process was followed.

The plea given by a US State Department official was that the said Indian  diplomat wasnt covered by the VCCR (Vienna convention on Consular Relations) in this matter because "the Indian Deputy Consul General enjoys immunity from the jurisdiction of US courts only with respect to acts performed in the exercise of consular functions". 

It wasn't a "plea". They were clarifying their position to the uninitiated.

However, regardless of any Visa fraud allegedly committed by the diplomat, US has violated international law on two counts at least, once by arresting a foreign consular officer and a second time by handcuffing the consular officer.

:)  Please cite your sources regarding "international laws" and the ostensible violation of the said laws.

The US clearly does not consider the appointment of personal employees by a consular official important to the execution of consular functions whereas the Indians would differ.

Not sure where you are going with this. A nanny is affecting the consular functions how?

The functional necessity of a housemaid by a diplomat who is also a young mother with two kids could be debated.

Sure enough, we can debate everything under the Sun but what is relevant and what is irrelevant should also be debated given the context.

The maid in question certainly does not come across as a victim to me.

Opinion and not a fact

If anyone it is the diplomat who was caught unawares by her scheming maid.

Scheming? OK, now you are getting worked up as you type.

Obtaining US citizenship by any means seems to have been the maid's  goal .

Assumption.

Was she being underpaid and exploited? I don't think so.

Per the Fair Labors Standard Act, she was. In any case, underpayment is not the allegation here. False representation of facts is.

She had accepted the pay and service terms before leaving for US. In all probability her travelling expenses, health insurance, food, lodging, clothing  and other amenities were paid for by her employers and did not get accounted  for while calculating her wages. Its been calculated that at $ 9.75 per hour plus the overtime services that would be expected due to travelling at short notices with the diplomat and late working hrs of the official, the maid's wages could exceed the Indian diplomat's salary!

The Indian authorities are rightly incensed at the treatment by the US authorities. They had sought help from US in tracing the absconding maid but instead were greeted with getting their official handcuffed, strip searched and confined with common criminals with total disregard to her diplomatic status. The Indian counterparts would be very much within their rights to retaliate in a similar manner . All the same, resorting to false charges is highly unacceptable no matter what the provocation.  Indian authorities would have no trouble in retaliating through fair means should they decide to do so. They could start by frisking all the US diplomats at the airport as a security measure. They could also retaliate by not sparing those guilty of breaking any Indian domestic law. I wonder what happens if a US diplomat is found guilty and charged under the controversial section 377 . Would diplomatic immunity apply in that case! Those who do not believe in diplomacy do not deserve any themselves. Bilateral relations are bound to suffer.

I believe I addressed some of the points here in m reply to Souro.

Let me ask you something. Is it patriotism that is prompting some of you to overlook Ms. Khobragade's alleged crimes and start foaming at the mouth?

This content was originally posted by: charminggenie

India has reacted very strongly , reducing the security covers, barricades, has taken their Ids and has refused to meet the Congress Delegation .

The horror! May be they should take away their morning coffee as well. Serves them right.

Unconditional apology is a must here.

What should it read? That "We apologize for following the law?"

In a normal case, Us would have appeal to the Indian govt, they would have recalled her and posted her elsewhere. Handcuffing , strip searching is steps taken too far!

I am yet to read how standard procedures are violated.

Interesting debate here. I'm not too familiar with all the facts, but it seems like the Indian media is reporting a very one sided story. I'm sure we are getting a one side here as well. Will see how the case progresses and what facts come out. 

This content was originally posted by: K.Universe.

Ms. Khobragade's salary is immaterial to the discussion on hand.

Very relevant, but you won't understand cos you don't believe in reality, you're an idealist.




A witch-hunt initiated by the influential Khobragades, backed by a banana republic government. However, this doesn't affect the allegations themselves leveled against Ms. Khobragade, which are a) causing a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented b) making materially false and fraudulent statements.

And you know that because? You are a member of Khobragade family? You are member of the maid's family? Ms. Khobragade told you herself that she initiated it on false ground?

And I think you're really losing it now and becoming desperate. Seriously, India a banana republic? Maybe you wish it to be, but it's not. That's why an Indian diplomat being mistreated is not being taken lightly in this country.
And the orders that are passed by the Indian court should be respected, and if they decided that there is enough ground to issue a warrant against the maid then it should have been respected as well.



They took her to a cell. Again, standard procedures. Surely, you don't expect them to take her to Ritz Carlton?

Sure, we know how to follow standard procedures as well. Do you think it takes a lot of bravado to arrest someone and handcuff them in public? To strip search them? These are standard procedures over here as well for criminals. And don't worry US diplomats will soon find out that our standard procedures are not so different from their's if US govt. doesn't back down.


 

You are being evasive in defining what constitutes a "fair game" in this scenario. I gave you the context and asked you to present your version of "equal terms" when dealing with the US diplomats currently posted in India. Sure, if they did a crime, they will have to do the time. But you were advocating arresting them, even if it means on unfounded accusations, which is what I questioned and which is what you are back-pedaling on. It's simple. Complete the sentence. "I am in favor of arresting US diplomats posted in India, even if it means I have to do it on false premises, because _________________________"

Evasive? I think I stated it pretty clearly, that when it is the matter of country and when dealing with other countries, I don't believe in being scrupulous. Read it as: if someone is being unfair, get them to taste their own medicine by hook or crook. Another way to read it, there are thousands of laws that no one knows about and no one cares about, get them through one those.

Courtesy begets courtesy. If someone is being offensive, they get hostility in return, not courteousness. So far the hostility shown by India in reaction is the tip of the iceberg. Just wait and see how much it can escalate if US govt. doesn't apologise and try to ease the tension.
Your govt. will be forced to do the back pedaling. They will force your US hero Preet Bharara to back pedal. Don't worry about me, I'll retain the same view and without being apologetic about it.