Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 3

Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by K.Universe.



Oh this makes me wonder about your take when an American diplomat fled Kenya after crushing a local and his family under the wrath of his speedy sedan. The whole of American embassy rallied together and made sure the diplomat and his family were out of country. Sigh ! you see it was Kenya , doubt it made noise in the big old American land and the noises from the African nation were ignored. This happened this Aug. Read it!

If you want to follow the book, by all means strike the margins even but make sure you fall through yourself!
Edited by charminggenie - 10 years ago
Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by souro


And you know that because? You are a member of Khobragade family? You are member of the maid's family? Ms. Khobragade told you herself that she initiated it on false ground?


I don't understand the question. Are you asking how do I know that the allegations are true (which obviously I don't because she's not convicted yet, she was merely arrested and released on bail, the trial is pending, which makes it a faulty line of inquiry by you?) or are you asking how do I know if the witch-hunt was for real (where was the need to take her husband and child into custody back in July? Where was the need to revoke Richard's official passport? Where was the need to request the US State Department to locate Richard and return her to India? Where was the need to issue an order to restrain Richard from instituting any action or proceedings against Dr Khobragade? Where was the need to  issue a notice to Richard's husband Philip in Delhi? Are these justified enough before you question the witch-hunt part of my allegation?)

Originally posted by souro


And I think you're really losing it now and becoming desperate. Seriously, India a banana republic?


Not quite! I am not the only one seeing it for what it is. Your own Kejriwal said, and I quote, ""Will I-T find anything if it conducts raids or surveys? Raids are conducted in secrecy. This is how CBI conducts raids after grand announcements. And what happened to Robert Vadra? Does any agency have guts to even summon him or investigate him. He is so right. It's a banana republic!"

But I understand that proving that India is a banana republic is beyond the scope of the discussion here so I will retract that impromptu remark.

Originally posted by souro



Evasive? I think I stated it pretty clearly, that when it is the matter of country and when dealing with other countries, I don't believe in being scrupulous. Read it as: if someone is being unfair, get them to taste their own medicine by hook or crook. Another way to read it, there are thousands of laws that no one knows about and no one cares about, get them through one those.


What makes you think that Ms. Khobragade was arrested "by crook" that you are looking for an equivalent retaliation? Seems to me that she was arrested "by hook".

I don't know which "thousands of" laws you have in mind that no one cares about, but I can guarantee that labor laws aren't among those. Underpayment of minimum wages and non-compliance is not taken lightly in developed nations. Neither is material misrepresenation of facts.

Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by charminggenie



Oh this makes me wonder about your take when an American diplomat fled Kenya after crushing a local and his family under the wrath of his speedy sedan. The whole of American embassy rallied together and made sure the diplomat and his family were out of country. Sigh ! you see it was Kenya , doubt it made noise in the big old American land and the noises from the African nation were ignored. This happened this Aug. Read it!


Tragic. He should be tried for homicide. The US government should recompense for injury and loss.

Edited by K.Universe. - 10 years ago
Posted: 10 years ago
@Mr K - You see the general outrage, this is one of many homicidal cases where American diplomats were involved and have gone scout free on grounds of immunity ( never verified). Shouldn't astonish that none were tired but each nation was duly handed a letter of co-operation from US govt.
I would use the term " Festina Lente" which has not been followed by both US and Indian authorities. 

I agree the labour laws of America should be respected and duly followed. When in Rome , do as Romans. Infact this should call a nation wide ponder on minimum labour wages in India.  Therefore if Ms khobragade is found guilty on all accounts , she should be severely reprimanded by Indian govt considering here both Employer Vs Employee are Indians and a due trial was undergoing in Indian Court for the past few months. 
What has been a tradition and a protocol in friendlier nations, the local govt lodges a compliant with the High Commission and  the assigned officer is immediately transferred suspended by the native authorities especially in matters of visa/documentation fraud.

Another peculiar matter is the application of labour laws for Diplomats. I believe a good number of nations are free from  practicing American norms as they enjoy exempt on diplomatic grounds. This is due to the economic factors of such countries. I don't think India falls under the category but it still doesn't take the ambiguity surrounding it.

In this particular case, I feel she has erred in procuring visa for the employee under false documentations but she has been involved in a heavy legal battle for the same back in India and her office did declare the maid as an abscounder. This does raise an eyebrow that US authorities were aware of the Indian court involvement so should have approached the Embassy to extend their displeasure and strictly asked for her immediate removal. Not an unseen precedent for a developed nation with a friendly ties.

Now where the attorney office I feel acted on haste is handcuffing a diplomat (not charged for homicidal cases) and conducting bodily search both heavily marked as uncalled behavior by Vienna Convention.  Most of the sensible outrage is towards this action. It could have dealt with a lot more sensitivity and dignity considering the diplomatic ring to it.

I for one don't like when our Leaders , Actors make a hue and cry over the security checks, those are in absolute National interest.  But again , should be a standardized procedure without any discrimination.

Now for US media , Indian reaction might be a little too loud. But consider the MEA office right now, they are bargaining for the release of a Capt jailed in Tongo ( pirate issues) and trying to punish the Italian Marines who murdered on Indian soil.  The office is under fire and is shocked at how a friendly nation like US mistreated a diplomat over an issue which has been practiced by every nation. A quick idea about the wages American households in India or in other developing nations pay would give you a fair idea.  Add the disbelief of mishandling the dignity of an "educated Indian Woman" , you have an honest call sheet.

Preet usually gets my respect especially when he sniffs all the inside trading cases but his name and his involvement has added to the eyeballs. I won't consider the US office so naive and not see the headlines which this partnership would create. So what was the main agenda behind all this?

If we go by latest bytes from US office , there is a shift in the tone and I see them back-paddling on this issue!

Time to give Vienna another call perhaps?
Posted: 10 years ago
Genie, I read everything you wrote (mind you, you wrote quite a lot :) and absorbed what you have to say.

I will wait to hear more from the agencies here - if appropriate procedures were followed before, during and after arrest, then unfortunately, tautological as it may sound, that's that.
Posted: 10 years ago
To add the same treatment was meted out to Dominic Strauss-Kahn, although charges made against him were much more severe. Protocol followed was standard protocol when someone is suspected of crime.

I think the outrage is quite a bit over the top because this has been the standard protocol followed by USA, irrespective of which country the person is from or what their stature is. This wasn't a bias against India.

USA may try to rescue their diplomats abroad from arrests. However, in the past US diplomats have been arrested, detained, kidnapped etc. In those situations, USA has tried to negotiate release rather than retaliate. USA also has extradition treaties with many nations including India and has honored them.

The primary tool of diplomacy irrespective of situation is negotiations. However, I think withdrawing security and refusal to meet delegation is an acceptable form of showing displeasure before negotiation. Making up false allegations and making threats is crossing the line.

I don't think it is fair to expect USA to change its laws or its protocol. But it would be absolutely fair to expect USA to show more reciprocity in terms of applying laws of the host nations.
Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by return_to_hades


This wasn't a bias against India.


If someone is alleging that, they need to supply a motive.

If someone is not alleging that, they need to explain why according to them the US is treating this particular officer any differently (than they would treat other officers from other countries).
Posted: 10 years ago
Originally posted by K.Universe.




If someone is alleging that, they need to supply a motive.
I don't think anyone has insinuated towards this angle, yes as a nation with a friendly status , considering the severity of the allegations - the treatment meted on a diplomat irrespective of nationality was not appropriate.  

If someone is not alleging that, they need to explain why according to them the US is treatin
g this particular officer any differently (than they would treat other officers from other countries).
I would sound like a broken record here , but because America doesn't have a universal labour laws for diplomats. It has been equally lenient to many nations for the same allegations in the past including in a case featuring a diplomat from Japan and another from  UAE
. This is a very common , yet pitiable practice enjoyed by many nations all around and has an unspoken approach to it - "which America has also practiced". It's the double standards with how the big nation practices the standard procedure in it's own land and makes a mockery in many another.  

Another difference- Vienna Convention - Though the diplomatic immunity doesn't not apply to consular duties, many feel legally the Indian Diplomat would  and should have enjoyed this immunity.  Her case is being defended on these grounds.



Hades - Kahn as you yourself mentioned committed a crime which was huge in it's magnitude so citing his example viz a viz this incident ( which was already under trial in the native nation) is a little too different.  I doubt there was a different view from any of the International communities.
I would love to know how America has defended it's people who were charged with same misdemeanor in other countries say like Pakistan, India etc

In all the examples you mentioned American Govt rightfully defended their people even when the charges were as big as homicidal, going as far as proving aircraft to ship them off the countries. Wouldn't judge then why cannot India protest against the manhandling of it's official in any form as it likes. The steps it has taken are not unheard and has been championed by developed nations. The point to be noted is - India has not defended the diplomat's action all it is protesting is the tact - which not only drew International attention making it a prestige issue but which was an issue that could have easily been dealt with diplomatic channels.


I don't understand the usage of the term standardized procedures in context of diplomacy where the terms, treatment and rules vary depending on different degrees of friendliness.
Edited by charminggenie - 10 years ago
Posted: 10 years ago
Not sure many have read abt the deviyani arrest in the us which has upset india because of the way she was treated and hence india in retaliation has cancelled all special privileges given to the us diplomats in india

Do you think such a stand by india is justified ?
Posted: 10 years ago
This is leading to a full on war between india and the us and i feel that us might now be even stricter while issuing visas to indians

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