Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 4

REdited by maha2us - 10 years ago

Originally posted by: Vinzy

This is a very complicated situation. I agree that Devyani was unable to pay an amount as big as 4500$ to her maid as her own salary is lesser than that,but I also don't agree that she should have broken the US law...

Add the cost of food, lodging, to and fro airfare from India to US to whatever salary she was being given.

But

I'm assuming someone who was capable of becoming an IFS office was also capable of comprehending the terms of the contract she had signed. Secondly, it seems that Devyani owns two properties in the Adarsh Society in Mumbai which is part of a larger land scam which I am sure is worth crores, so it appears strange to me that our Government bureaucrats can afford and own super expensive apartments but claim they earn a certain amount and therefore cannot pay wages.

Let's not mix two issues. First of all we don't know whether she is corrupt. Secondly, even if she is involved in some kind of corruption within India it is India's internal matter, it's none of USA's business. Here it's not about whether she is corrupt or not, it's about an Indian diplomat being mistreated. Who that Indian diplomat is, is not relevant here. If a nation's diplomat is mistreated, it's an insult to the nation not a matter of that individual alone. And India is well within their rights to retaliate.

Thirdly my research states that once her domestic staff demanded the rightful amount that was due to her, a series of legal cases were filled against this poor woman and her family by this powerful bureaucrat and her husband and child were taken in police custody.

Your research? Since when did you take up investigative journalism?

Moreover, if the maid's family was taken into police custody and if it's proved that it was done wrongfully, I once again reiterate, it's India's internal matter, not USA's business.

The crime was commited in the USA, an Indian court has no rulling over it, like it or not. Modern slavery, is what it is called !!!😊

She didn't mistreat or abuse or physically harm the maid. She didn't confiscate her passport and turn the maid into a bonded labour. She didn't make the maid to work for free. She paid the maid what is affordable for an Indian employee drawing salary by Indian standard, which was much higher than what maids get in India but not as high as maids in US. And US would've done better to keep all that in mind and to handle this more sensitively since it involves a diplomat from another country.

Originally posted by: Vinzy

This is a very complicated situation. I agree that Devyani was unable to pay an amount as big as 4500$ to her maid as her own salary is lesser than that,but I also don't agree that she should have broken the US law...

 

how do you suggest  she was  to comply with the minimum wages law ? Sell all her property in India so that she could pay wages fixed by USA?

But

I'm assuming someone who was capable of becoming an IFS office was also capable of comprehending the terms of the contract she had signed. Secondly, it seems that Devyani owns two properties in the Adarsh Society in Mumbai which is part of a larger land scam which I am sure is worth crores, so it appears strange to me that our Government bureaucrats can afford and own super expensive apartments but claim they earn a certain amount and therefore cannot pay wages.

How many people in the world sell properties to pay wages 😆 salary earned at Indian rates, Property was bought at Indian rates , wages to be paid at US rates

Thirdly my research states that once her domestic staff demanded the rightful amount that was due to her, a series of legal cases were filled against this poor woman and her family by this powerful bureaucrat and her husband and child were taken in police custody.

How was that amount rightfully demanded? She had accepted the lesser pay before leaving for US but later slapped the exploitation charge on landing in US 😉 

The crime was commited in the USA, an Indian court has no rulling over it, like it or not. Modern slavery, is what it is called !!!😊

If other countries start implementing their local rulings on US officers on their land imagine their plight. High time they did   😆

Originally posted by: souro

Originally posted by: Vinzy

This is a very complicated situation. I agree that Devyani was unable to pay an amount as big as 4500$ to her maid as her own salary is lesser than that,but I also don't agree that she should have broken the US law...

This is an embarrassing precedent which our Diplomats have been indulging for all these years. See the loopholes of "labour laws for diplomats" are misused . I concede she has broken a law and should be tried but according to the diplomatic stature. 

But

I'm assuming someone who was capable of becoming an IFS office was also capable of comprehending the terms of the contract she had signed. Secondly, it seems that Devyani owns two properties in the Adarsh Society in Mumbai which is part of a larger land scam which I am sure is worth crores, so it appears strange to me that our Government bureaucrats can afford and own super expensive apartments but claim they earn a certain amount and therefore cannot pay wages.

Vinzy- Comeon . You suddenly sound like Mayawati using the dalit card for India's delayed reaction here. If she is guilty of more corruption then she should be tried by Indian court.  Conspiracies can be handled later.

Thirdly my research states that once her domestic staff demanded the rightful amount that was due to her, a series of legal cases were filled against this poor woman and her family by this powerful bureaucrat and her husband and child were taken in police custody.

But the domestic help did sign and agreed on the wages before she took the plane. If she is capable of understanding her labour laws in US then sure as well would have remembered them before agreeing to this disparity. If her husband and her child were taken in custody then shame on Indian authorities and they can be sued and shamed. But since i am ignorant of this development , I choose to wait on this.

The crime was commited in the USA, an Indian court has no rulling over it, like it or not. Modern slavery, is what it is called !!!😊

Disagree- Considering the employee vs employer in this case were from same nationality - India and had ongoing trial about their arrangement , this does become an important piece of evidence in any court.  A similar offence by diplomats is met by an immediate removal from the office and suspension in case of friendly bilateral relations.  Hence the astonishment, makes many view if it is part of changing shift in Indo-US relations.

Modern Slavery is debated if we analyze the economic condition of the employer. 

The argument here is not about proving her guilty or not. The issue lies in the interpretation of Vienna Convention in regards to diplomatic immunity . Also about the subsequent arrest and nature of it. 

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

What treatment? She was arrested and then released on bail. Due process was followed.

Article 41 of the Vienna convention for diplomatic relation says that consular officers are not liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority. It further says that consular officers cannot be imprisoned or be subjected to any other form of restriction on their personal freedom, unless there is a judicial order.  In case, a consular officer is arrested, he/she should appear before the competent authorities and should be conducted with the 'respect due to him by reason of his official position', says the Convention.

Does not look as if due process was followed. If the crime committed was that grave why was the official released on bail after a couple of hours?

 

:)  Please cite your sources regarding "international laws" and the ostensible violation of the said laws.
I expect you to have gone through the VCCR by now . I have quoted article 41 above.

"The US clearly does not consider the appointment of personal employees by a consular official important to the execution of consular functions whereas the Indians would differ."

Not sure where you are going with this. A nanny is affecting the consular functions how?

The diplomat does not work in isolation but depends on a team of assistants in carrying out duties in an effiicient maner. The services of the driver, steno, nanny and housekeeper and others would play an essential part in the diplomat being able to devote her time and attention on her consular functions. In their absence the quality of work is liable to be affected. Thats the reason why the govt bears part expenses of these assistants.

Hope that gives  clarifies how a nanny cum housekeeper of a busy consulate officer would affect the consular function.

Per the Fair Labors Standard Act, she was. In any case, underpayment is not the allegation here. False representation of facts is.

The fair labours std act and enforcement of minimum wages sounds good in principle. I hope the US implements it across the world with their own employees or contractual workers. Shouldnt be difficult at all considering the currency conversions. Yet I would like to see what the survey being conducted in the US offices and schools in India comes up with. Makes me wonder about the reasons for outsourcing semi skilled workforce by US.

Let me ask you something. Is it patriotism that is prompting some of you to overlook Ms. Khobragade's alleged crimes and start foaming at the mouth?

Allow me also to ask you if it is patriotism or obligation to US that prompts you to take such a narrow view on this issue.

Originally posted by: charminggenie

The argument here is not about proving her guilty or not. The issue lies in the interpretation of Vienna Convention in regards to diplomatic immunity . Also about the subsequent arrest and nature of it. 

Well pointed out Genie !  Diplomatic immunity has been open to interpretations.US chose to ignore diplomatic immunity  in this case citing VCCR while it invoked the same 1961 pact two years back when CIA contractor Raymond Allen Davis was being tried for murder in Pakistan. The US had then pressed the Pakistani government to release Davis, accused of killing two Pakistanis, on the grounds that he enjoyed immunity extended to all diplomats under the Convention. when it comes to American diplomats and citizens, the US is very sensitive and demands maximum privileges for them, as was evident in the Davis case. Davis was just a contractor with the US embassy in Pakistan  and yet they invoked diplomatic immunity. Some  double standards that!

While the govt is right in its indignation and retaliatory measures there is an urgent need for it  to resolve the issues that led to this impasse, if it hopes to prevent its officials from being subjected to such humiliation. The core issue is an economic gap- a maid New York has to be paid more than a full-time Indian diplomat in New York. Any Indian diplomat who brings domestic workers to the West will end up underpaying them according to local law. Thereafter  he or she runs the risk of having the worker go to the local authorities with claims of being paid below legal wages. Until this is resolved, almost every Indian diplomat with household help will be skirting the law when they live in a high-wage economy. A further complication is ever-stricter international codes on human trafficking. A foreigner brought to work in a home in the West can now receive asylum and citizenship if he or she is able to prove her employer defrauded or otherwise maltreated them. Automatically, the incentive to level such charges against an employer increases. It needs to be realized  that if the maid was underpaid it was because of the absurd discrepancy that exists between the wage scales of India and the West.

If Indian diplomats cannot be paid more, then New Delhi needs to work out an alternative arrangement by which its diplomats can avail catering, entertainment and house-cleaning services overseas " perhaps local companies could be hired for part time services. Full time maids would pose concerns for confidentiality given the increasing incidents of snooping that can be expected in such sensitive posts. Another option could be to have these assistants for the diplomats on the govt pay-roll instead of the diplomats. That way the diplomats would not be held responsible for their wages.

This may seem harsh to Indians where officials tend to get special privileges. However, from USA perspective all criminals receive equal treatment under the eyes of laws. It doesn't matter if it is a high ranking powerful official of an organization representing several nations or a simple consular worker of a nation. It doesn't matter if the diplomatic alliance is friendly or tense, all criminals are treated the same. Why do Indians believe that Ms. Khobragade was mistreated or treated unfairly?

 

It is common understanding that you have to make some sort of cost of living adjustments when you have employees abroad. The minimum wage of $7.25/hr is considered at poverty line. Anything below $5.00/hr would be considered slavery or bonded labor in USA that is an unfathomable amount below poverty. In New York the cost of living is significantly higher and the minimum wage is $9.00/hr. You would be hovering close to the poverty line at that salary. To pay someone a mere $3.31/hr in New York is beyond shocking. I don't think people in India really grasp exactly how horrid and criminal that pay is in USA.

 

That being said, underpayment of the maid is the tertiary issue in this scenario. The biggest concern is the Visa fraud and misinformation. Ms. Khobragade filed a visa for the maid with the claim that she would be paid $4,500/mo. She obtained that Visa under false information. That is roughly $26.00/hr. She could have easily obtained a maid close to $9.00/hr within USA without having to bring someone in. So to bring someone specialized in at a false claim and then pay them criminally low wages is fraudulent and modern day slavery. This is breaking of USA law about immigration and wage standards and it was completely US jurisdiction, not Indias.

 

This situation is about how a country handles diplomatic crime on its soil. How a country treats its diplomats abroad is separate matter. USA has always had the stance to back its diplomats and citizens. It even tries to protect citizens who are in trouble wherever feasible. It is deplorable that it protects crimes as severe as murder. The USA stance is that the criminals should be tried in criminal courts because our justice system is better structured than other nations (cocky and pretentious). If a USA diplomat is in trouble the USA will try to remove them from the nation before arrest. If arrested or detained, the USA uses negotiations, bilateral and quid pro quo agreements to get the person released. I think every country has a right to back their diplomats and citizens and have such arrangements. I understand a certain level of moral outrage over the Khobragade incident, but the reactions were uncalled for a standard protocol for criminals was followed. The threats to slap criminal charges on US diplomats and even send them back was even more over the top. I also think it would be grossly unfair to single out US diplomats because USA was definitely not singling out an Indian diplomat. Other countries are also welcome to make their criminal procedures tough and standardized across the board as well.