Devyani Khobragade's crime with her position is not covered by diplomatic immunity of the Vienna convention.
Originally posted by: return_to_hades
This may seem harsh to Indians where officials tend to get special privileges. However, from USA perspective all criminals receive equal treatment under the eyes of laws. It doesn't matter if it is a high ranking powerful official of an organization representing several nations or a simple consular worker of a nation. It doesn't matter if the diplomatic alliance is friendly or tense, all criminals are treated the same. Why do Indians believe that Ms. Khobragade was mistreated or treated unfairly?
By considering and treating Ms.Khobragade as a common criminal , stripping and handcuffing her US has violated an International treaty- Vienna Convention. So Indians do have a valid reason for their reaction.
Officials not only in India but everywhere do tend to get privileges. I can quote you enough examples where US diplomatic delegates get the clear pass not only in their country but in other nations as well.
Lets not be too idealistic about American laws , shall we, I am sure it's theory of equal law for all has been challenged a lot more time.
If US considers itself to be a world leader then it needs to maintain treaties like Vienna with full considerations.
It is common understanding that you have to make some sort of cost of living adjustments when you have employees abroad. The minimum wage of $7.25/hr is considered at poverty line. Anything below $5.00/hr would be considered slavery or bonded labor in USA that is an unfathomable amount below poverty. In New York the cost of living is significantly higher and the minimum wage is $9.00/hr. You would be hovering close to the poverty line at that salary. To pay someone a mere $3.31/hr in New York is beyond shocking. I don't think people in India really grasp exactly how horrid and criminal that pay is in USA.
American labour laws clearly gives exemption to many countries from following the minimum wage law. India was not part of the group but the strictness and the advocacy of Modern slavary sounds hollow , if you turn blind eye to others. Banglashi Diplomats have hired maids from home at mere $2.30/hr, why were they deported by US? Oh yeah , they were given a clear exemption. $3.31/hr + bonus + health care+living expenses were provided . I would really like to know if Ms Khobragade's salary meets the average wages of an employee in NY, if not would US suspend Indian embassy.
That being said, underpayment of the maid is the tertiary issue in this scenario. The biggest concern is the Visa fraud and misinformation. Ms. Khobragade filed a visa for the maid with the claim that she would be paid $4,500/mo. She obtained that Visa under false information. That is roughly $26.00/hr. She could have easily obtained a maid close to $9.00/hr within USA without having to bring someone in. So to bring someone specialized in at a false claim and then pay them criminally low wages is fraudulent and modern day slavery. This is breaking of USA law about immigration and wage standards and it was completely US jurisdiction, not Indias.
Dr Roger Bilham , a US Diplomat and geophysicists was deported from India on visa violations, when US embassy quoted "friendly relationships". This was year 2012, I can quote zillion examples where US has sought reprieve citing the relations with India. So pray tell, what is wrong with India to expect similar treatment , or are the rules, laws should be implemented according to the whims and fancy of US.
I hate to use this example which Mr Sinha, ex FM India cited: If two American diplomats who were in relationship were to be arrested under IPC 377 , how would US react. Because like US , India also has full right to implement it's laws even if they are as regressive and contrived like 377.
This situation is about how a country handles diplomatic crime on its soil. How a country treats its diplomats abroad is separate matter. USA has always had the stance to back its diplomats and citizens. It even tries to protect citizens who are in trouble wherever feasible. It is deplorable that it protects crimes as severe as murder. The USA stance is that the criminals should be tried in criminal courts because our justice system is better structured than other nations (cocky and pretentious). If a USA diplomat is in trouble the USA will try to remove them from the nation before arrest. If arrested or detained, the USA uses negotiations, bilateral and quid pro quo agreements to get the person released. I think every country has a right to back their diplomats and citizens and have such arrangements. I understand a certain level of moral outrage over the Khobragade incident, but the reactions were uncalled for a standard protocol for criminals was followed. The threats to slap criminal charges on US diplomats and even send them back was even more over the top. I also think it would be grossly unfair to single out US diplomats because USA was definitely not singling out an Indian diplomat. Other countries are also welcome to make their criminal procedures tough and standardized across the board as well.
What would you say when the said country shows disparity in dealing the same laws with different nations. How can diplomacy be so one-sided that the wishes of one will only be filled.
Yes US criminal structure was flawless when OJ Simpson walked free and the jokes kept playing decades after.
Hades- Vienna Convention is not some filmy book, it is treaty signed by almost of the nations of this world including India and US, and according to which as much as we like to insist Ms Khbragade is not just a normal standard criminal. She is and was a diplomat who was eligible for diplomacy immunity.
You do know what you are suggesting , standardizing diplomatic channels. So that will mean weakening Afghanistan influence of US, China coming out with N Korea and so much chaos.
If as you concede US fights tooth and nail to fight for it's citizens even in grave crimes , so shouldn't India be allowed to behave as it sees fit. Why preach the propriety. You do know it's these friendly terms and the perks which alllows US to extradite criminals and natives as it wishes. But yeah the world should revolve around US
US govt and officials must be tried by Pakistan because US violated every diplomatic and International law when it flew that chopper in their territory without any intimidation and killed the citizens of Pakistan. But ofcourse, only US can use rules not a country like India or Pakistan.
Hades - Ms Khobragade might be guilty but my stripping her diplomatic rights , US has also made a grave measure.
- The USA has cited explanations why this was not Devyani Khobragade's crime was not exempt under Vienna convention. I think an international court will have to decide whose claim is true, whose is not.
- The principle of USA law is fairness. I agree that it is not always implemented impartially. However, can you explain the motive and rationale behind singling out an Indian diplomat and treating her unfairly?
- I know there are exceptions from the minimum wages. If so then Ms. Khobragade should have applied for an exemption, not defrauded the visa papers. Also I don't think the allowed exemptions are as low as $2.21. Exemptions would also vary by location.
- Ms. Khobragade is getting the average wage. At $4400.00/mo is making a similar wage to US FSO at her level, a wee bit higher actually.
- The officers were given orders for arrest. They followed protocol. They didn't intend to unfairly be harsh on Khobograde. It was standard first response. However, no one is denying citing friendly relationships beyond first response. You can always negotiate that to get the officer released to Indian custody/deported, be exempted from trial in USA etc or even waive the charges if feasible. But don't act like a petulant child over first response when no discrimination or harm was intended.
- Yes. Under IPC 377 India has complete rights to arrest diplomats and foreign visitors who are gay. However, considering that IPC 377 has just been reinstated they should give notice to the embassies to allow time for change in staff. Also it should be across the board for all nations who allow gay marriages or domestic partnership. Because again I reiterate, this was not an action against "India" but action against a criminal "individual" .
- I'm not saying diplomacy should be one sided. All I said was USA has a policy for unconditional backing of diplomats and citizens. USA even tried to get Amanda Knox out. Other countries don't have that policy. I don't agree that criminals should be abetted. But that is a discrepancy of choice, not discrepancy of diplomatic reciprocity.
- Never said USA justice system was flawless. I said it was pretentious and cocky of US to think so. Casey Anthony, George Zimmerman are more examples. I was just stating that it is a US belief. Which is not completely unsubstantiated. There are countries where most countries would find the justice systems objectionable.
- See first point about Vienna convention.
- I'm not suggesting standardizing diplomacy. I suggested standardizing first response.
- India has every right to fight tooth and nail for its diplomats. Firstly, India doesn't have a set policy on who and how it will back. It backs people arbitrarily. Secondly, negotiation and diplomacy should be the first tactic. Sanctions, embargos and withdrawal of privileges second. The final option should be retaliation. I believe USA has followed that. And if it hasn't then the USA is wrong. But again I reiterate, the issue was made of a first response without even knowing if USA was willing to negotiate and release said person or even drop/reduce charges.
- I think we are venturing into war'. There is always conflict between war alliances/treaties and diplomacy. That being said I do believe many US officials are guilty of war crimes. They can and should be tried in international military courts. But again, war crimes are a separate issue from diplomatic ties.
- Again statement one. Both parties have a different interpretation of immunities granted by the convention. Which party interpreted Vienna convention incorrectly or correctly is to be seen.
Allow me also to ask you if it is patriotism or obligation to US that prompts you to take such a narrow view on this issue.
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how do you suggest she was to comply with the minimum wages law ? Sell all her property in India so that she could pay wages fixed by USA?
By not having champagne on a beer budget. By not living beyond one's means. By not buying goods or services that one cannot afford.
How many people in the world sell properties to pay wages 😆 salary earned at Indian rates, Property was bought at Indian rates , wages to be paid at US rates
Even though Ms. Khobragade's salary is irrelevant to the charges she's facing, because some of you are constantly harping on her "meager" salary, I need to see proof of her compensation structure while in US. Other than word of mouth, there is no factual evidence floating around that says Ms. Khobragade earned at Indian rates.How was that amount rightfully demanded? She had accepted the lesser pay before leaving for US but later slapped the exploitation charge on landing in US 😉
Are you sure it was the maid who slapped the exploitation charges on Ms. Khobragade?If other countries start implementing their local rulings on US officers on their land imagine their plight. High time they did 😆
They should. No one is stopping them. If not for the sake of US, then for the sake of their own countrymen.
If Devyani Khobragade made $4120/mo per sources, then she made $49,440 a year. Some sources are claiming she made $100,000 a year, which is a whopping sum for a government officer. Usually that is for very high ranking officers and entry level ambassadors.
You can compare the $49,440/year with the US FSO pay scales here http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/205552.pdf . You will see that her pay is not only comparable but equivalent to what a mid to high ranking official would make. While this is not comparable to private firms in New York, her salary is actually "well to do" and quite "upper middle class". Considering that diplomatic officials have free or subsidized housing, it is way more than enough to hire a housemaid at higher than minimum wage. So the speculation that even she is underpaid is baseless.
So her need to bring in a maid from India and file her salary as $4500.00/mo is extremely suspicious.
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