Do women fuel partriarchy too? Why?

Posted: 9 years ago
From a bit of personal experiences and based on some discussions that I have read, I wonder if women are also responsible for inequality against women and also fuel partriarchy?

It was women in my growing years who told me that woman is only born to serve other's family, women are not supposed to compete, have to suppress anger and not utter a word when in pain, not challenge or argue with "authority" (usually males). It was the women who'd say males "were like this only" when males would be violent or rude or perverted. They'd talk as if we were helpless and had to bear with it or accept it as nature or fate.
Many lady teachers would scold girl students more and call them stupid, slow even at slightest mistake and even say openly that girls were mainly for marriage and household work. They'd say no matter how much we studied we'd have to ultimately end up doing "ghar ke kaam".

Women would say sons are important and carry "family name" forward and even though it is known that child carries both parents' genes, still they'd reject this notion and behave as if blood, genes, traits and whole identity of a child was derived only from father. They still say girls are only meant to be "sent" to "other" families and are "paraya dhan". At best when girls get some respect they are equated with "Lakshmi" - which is again property.

After puberty the number of girls going to play outside decreases. Many are married off after Class 12 or preferred to study arts subjects and be teachers or start some coaching class from home only.

When there is news of rape on TV shockingly it is women who say it was girl's fault or parents had given too much freedom to girls in today's times or they start to restrict their girls' movement even within the house, girls are made to feel scared and threatened. But no one steps up responsibility of teaching their boys to behave, respect women and no one checks the kind of company their boys keep, kind of media they consume. No attempt at controlling boys!

There are several dowry and domestic violence cases in which the MIL instigates husband to beat or burn the DIL.

Recent high profile rape cases had accused's mothers defending them, calling them innocent despite the accused confessing himself to have committed the crime!

In movies we had songs like "Mera pati mera devta hai", "Tum hi mere mandir, tumhi meri puja" where women is shown at feet of her husband, singing bhajans for him as if he is God.
We can write thesis on sexism in movies!

TV serials on Indian telly are as regressive as it gets. And those with a male lead who is angry, rogueish and maltreats women are insanely popular in online fandoms too as if it's "cute" to see love story of an innocent girl and a rogue of a man!

Online I came across a blog in which a woman herself was providing arguments and theories (as if it was a mission!) on how women were inferior to men, always needed to have some male authority over them (father, brother, husband, son etc.) at every stage of life and how education had "corrupted" women!

In real life too I have often come across women supporting their philandering, alcoholic sons and trashing their DILs for not supporting their laadla sons! Women are instantly blamed for bad luck if something negative happens. It is elder women themselves who want girls to bear a male child.

In customs, boys are given preference. Even in religions where equality is preached and no distinction is made between men and women, such as Sikhism, even there people discriminate a lot and more often than not it is women at the forefront!
Rarely they support their daughters, sisters, MILs, DILs, SILs. Rivalry can't be kept aside? Can't they be considerate to each other as fellow women?

My mother supports me and always motivates me. But there has been no dearth of people who told her she was wrong in her upbringing and that girls should not be focused much on career, education or their individual hobbies. They'd chide her for not sending me much to kitchen.

Even if men and women are in harmony with each other, it is other people (including women!) who point out to a man that he's giving "too much freedom" to his wife or his wife is controlling him and he does not even realise it! If a man is helpful in raising kids and household work and also helps wife in her career pursuits, he's called a puppet or a fool. Few praise him. Or he's called a stroke of luck for the woman and family. Why not encourage him and say all should be like him?

If kids make a mistake or have any flaw it is blamed totally on the mother. If kids have disagreements with father, then blame is on mother. Even if the kid spends equal time with both parents still why only mother is blamed?
Any achievement or good trait is credited to father or his family's genes. I've seen older women make faces when child's affinity to or any resemblance with mother's family is pointed out. As if child is only their son's!

Women who achieve equal or more than their husbands, often try to play down their achievements and never talk about their status. They stay behind. Stay quiet. Take any abuse or put downs from husband! Seeing this I feel that argument that women bear everything because of dependence and because man is breadwinner and hence they feel better to be silent - is hollow!

More often than not women gossip about other women who are single, divorced or widowed. A woman who is single by choice is also pitied or mocked. As if it's impossible to choose to remain single!

Just yesterday I heard of a distant relative whose own husband and biological daughter had turned against her and wanted her out of the house - that too after 21 years! What to talk of husband if own daughter also sides with father, says she wants a new mom and wants her mom to be thrown out?! (For record that lady is a very simple woman and is a housewife. Turned out that husband had an affair and now wants to throw her out, get a new woman in. All of a sudden he's saying he has problems with his wife after peaceful 21 years of marriage!).

Leave aside men. Why the hell are women not supportive and considerate towards each other? The way they often behave they seem to fuel partriarchy more than men themselves! Some of them even call partriarchy as law of nature or Will of God (even if their religion preaches equality). Some are writing books to protect sons from "today's" girls.

What's your experience? Your opinions? Don't you feel women also do nothing to help cause of women or at least make life easier for other women? Why are women too women's own enemies quite often?
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by atominis



Do women fuel patriarchy too?



I believe so.

Originally posted by atominis



Why?



It's a layered question.

The answers that bubble up to the surface tend to be superficial in nature, relatively speaking, depending upon which layer you are analyzing.

Here's a link to another thread that tackled / tackling subject matter converging along these lines:

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/topic/3911027



Posted: 9 years ago

I too believe so. But it's a complex issue. Hopefully, I'll make sense, and I am writing this based on how I am.

I guess when a girl loves someone, she becomes subservient, submissive, accepting and receptive. This is interpreted as being weak. NO. This makes her stronger according to me. It takes a lot of love, and egoless-ness to accept someone like that. This, the society does not understand.
 
I read somewhere that every woman sub-consciously wants to become submissive(meaning devoted)... to a man, her child, God, career etc. I agree with that. Atleast I am like this. My career, my family, God... This grows as you grow old i feel.
 
Basically, a woman is like that. And society has been accepting, conditioning, taking a woman's receptive nature for granted, which in the end created this existing perversion.
 
IDK about other women, but I feel a woman's core being is being receptive, she allows the domination, suffers because she's taken for granted. Little bit love on everyone's part is required, and a little bit of assertiveness on a woman's part(so that she's taken seriously).
 
Edited by Angel-likeDevil - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
@Atominis: Old habits die hard. Patriarchy had been there for a long time and older women are also products of patriarchy. Till the start of twentieth century, very few women went for work and the openings the women had was very limited. Those women could think only in one way believing a woman could be protected and provided for only by her husband. But people who like to go forward can do so but definitely getting forward is tough and requires a lot of courage.
You are to be happy, your mom supports you. The society has lot of people who will give free advice but no one in the society will help you when you are in problem even as you have been following their rules. Only those who don't conform with the rules of society can do well in life. Hope you are not put off by what anyone in the society says and are going on pursuing your career.

I had been encouraging my deceased wife to pursue her career and I gave her full freedom and this way, the love between us only increased. I used to do cooking and household work. I never gave importance to those persons who despised me.  And what they say didn't matter to me also because I was having a happy married life till God called halt when my wife died. 

What I am learning is, one has to improve in life based on God's gifts and not look into how the society is. Each person can only improve himself or herself. No one could change the society which is made by many cowards.
Posted: 9 years ago
Aren't these women born of the very same patriarchy?

Ours is a patriarchal societal structure and this structure allot certain roles to men and women.

And you cannot see the women dissociated from the structure. After all they are the products of the same society, just like the men.

Posted: 9 years ago
The biggest enemy a woman can have, know this, is another woman. You see that everyday in India. The first influence to a child, male or female is more the mother and less the father and it is the mother who brings up children in the same household differently depending on their gender and the societal role that each respectively has. I find it sickening. The mother tells her son to see his sister in the light that he does - fragile and born to spend her life in everyone's kitchens and not a person whose opinion matters. He sees not only his sister but every woman in that light. To say that generally, a male chauvinist is born in a family where women are treated like they are doing her a kindness by letting her live wouldn't be wrong now, would it?

A woman just got divorced in the neighborhood and all the women around get together to talk about it. How her life is ruined, how it takes two to ruin marriages but even so, her family is put to eternal shame and that her life is over. And that they think her life is over would be one fact that these women will never let go of. The divorced woman would see it on their faces that her life is finished.

I could really go on, you know? Fact of the matter is that  in a surprising number of cases, women suffer because other women won't support them. That's all that there is to it.
Edited by epiphany. - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by epiphany.


The biggest enemy a woman can have, know this, is another woman. You see that everything in India. The first influence to a child, male of female is more the mother and less the father and it is the mother who brings children in the same household differently depending on their gender and the societal role that each respectively has. I find it sickening. The mother tells her son to see his sister in the light that he does - fragile and born to spend her life in everyone's kitchens and not a person whose opinion matters. He sees not only his sister but every woman in that light. To say that, generally, a male chauvinist is born in a family where women are treated like they are doing her a kindness by letting her live wouldn't be wrong now, would it?

A woman just got divorced in the neighborhood and all the women all get together to talk about it. How her life is ruined, how it takes two to ruin marriages but even so, her family is put to eternal and shame and that her life is over. And that they think her life is over would be one fact that these women will never let go of every time they see the divorcee. She would see it on their faces that her life is finished.

I really go on, you know? Fact of the matter is that  in a surprising number of cases, women suffer because other women won't support them. That's all that there is to it.
This too is a thought that the patriarchy has drilled into our brains. ðŸ˜†

I agree our mothers shape our thoughts and mould our minds. But what about the father? Why is he so absent always? And only when his signature is required in the report card he makes a very loud appearance. And funnily enough, although a child always finds a mother around, he/she is convinced in the superiority of the absentee father. And male chauvinists I think take after their fathers mostly.


Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by -bLEu98-


This too is a thought that the patriarchy has drilled into our brains. ðŸ˜†

On the face of it, I don't believe believing this will do me harm long as I live where I do and see the things happening around me that I do.

I agree our mothers shape our thoughts and mould our minds. But what about the father? Why is he so absent always? And only when his signature is required in the report card he makes a very loud appearance. And funnily enough, although a child always finds a mother around, he/she is convinced in the superiority of the absentee father. And male chauvinists I think take after their fathers mostly.

I despise the basic concept of Father in India. We've all seen our fathers enter our lives on Sunday and leave for the next six days. But it'd now be interesting to know that the man in the house loses his superiority status faster than you can blink. Say for example if he has no active source of income anymore. You should listen to all the respectful things people in his family have to say for him now, man, woman and child alike. Nonetheless, I do not think a father can make you into a chauvinist, if so, not in the early years of your life. It's always the mother or the aunt or the grandmother. Because just like you highlighted, the fathers are either never there or even if they are they keep their distance from woman things like bringing their children up. I cannot put my finger on one reason why I dislike men the most, there's so many. And as much I dislike a lot of females too, it's easy for me to tell you which kind - the females who are concerned with only the societal roles that everybody has. Her son has to be dominating and get his way round the world. Her daughter is so not attending college. Her husband's only good as long as he's getting money for the household, after that, whatever the reasons may have been, he's a useless person and she doesn't oblige to give him tea and water and his food anymore. And even if there's no one left in the house who has an income, she won't step out because that's not for her to do.


Edited by epiphany. - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
It's usually the elder 'auntiji' women in the indian society who fuel patriarchy. Those who have been brought up and lived in an environment where patriarchy is encouraged and who treat women as laborers created for the use of the male society are the one's who think that patriarchy should be encouraged and that women have no job building a career or life. Their job is to:

1. Be born
2. Help with the housework
3. Marry
4. Serve their husband
5. Give birth
6. Die

While the men are being given education at school the women are being taught to work like slaves and do the house chores. These women think that they are this system is correct and that the female society is supposed to work for the males like this. They are the ones who grow up to be the ones who fuel patriarchy. They try and impose their perceptions onto their children along with the society. 

Modern society however, is now shunning patriarchy. The west does not encourage patriarchy at all. When I was a kid, my parents once took me to Disney World where a couple was celebrating their 21st wedding anniversary. When asked what the secret to a happy, long marriage was, the husband said, "Do what she says" the exact opposite of what patriarchist's in India say. Their answer would probably be, "Do what he says". 

Nowadays, the middle and upperclass families in India too strongly encourage their daughter's and female relative's to study, achieve a good education, get into an excellent university or college and get the occupation of their choice. It is no longer, "Haaye! Ladka kahan se milega agar ladki ko koi kaam nahi aata?!" 


I think over all, women encourage patriarchy more than men.
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by epiphany.



On the face of it, I don't believe believing this will do me harm long as I live where I do and see the things happening around me that I do.


I despise the basic concept of Father in India. We've all seen our fathers enter our lives on Sunday and leave for the next six days. But it'd now be interesting to know that the man in the house loses his superiority status faster than you can blink. Say for example if he has no active source of income anymore. You should listen to all the respectful things people in his family have to say for him now, man, woman and child alike. Nonetheless, I do not think a father can make you into a chauvinist, if so, not in the early years of your life. It's always the mother or the aunt or the grandmother. Because just like you highlighted, the fathers are either never there or even if they are they keep their distance from woman things like bringing their children up. I cannot put my finger on one reason why I dislike men the most, there's so many. And as much I dislike a lot of females too, it's easy for me to tell you which kind - the females who are concerned with only the societal roles that everybody has. Her son has to be dominating and get his way round the world. Her daughter is so not attending college. Her husband's only good as long as he's getting money for the household, after that, whatever the reasons may have been, he's a useless person and she doesn't oblige to give him tea and water and his food anymore. And even if there's no one left in the house who has an income, she won't step out because that's not for her to do.


 
Kankshita, tell me something, why would the wife always get tea, food, water whatever to her husband? Because that's her gender role right? Who confers these roles? Women? Well it's the patriarchy that does it. And now you are saying why should a woman go against that gender role she plays? ðŸ˜²
Tell me how is the woman rewarded for her labour in the domestic space? The kitchen, bringing up the children, sending them to school, serving the husband, serving him in bed, bearing the children, being obedient to the in laws? She doesn't receive a wage, does she? However cruel it is, but if a husband sits at home then he should fetch his own glass of water, because the one work he is needed to do is earn money. That's his gender role too.
And women do step out for their families, I've seen that. Anyway that's not even the argument.
You're saying a father doesn't have a role in fostering chauvinism. Boys become chauvinistic when they see their fathers ill-treating their mothers. And the discrimination that is meted out by the highest female in the family going by hierarchy, also has the man's consent in it. Boys can party all night but if a daughter doesn't come home by 9, the father will ask for an explanation from the mother.
The mother or the wife is not a free living being herself. She seldom takes independent decisions. She always needs permission from the husband or the in laws. Because she is not economically independent. The man is. He earns, he keeps his money and he makes the decisions. While we believe it's the mother making those tough decisions, it's the father who manipulates although not visible all this while. 

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