why do some people look down at girls who have child out of wedlock or - Page 5

Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by QuietlyLoud


Posted: 9 years ago
First of all just because your views are different from mine,that doesn't make me a  hindu who doesn't like hinduism or a keralite who doesn't know kerala culture. You have to respect others views like they respect yours, instead of jumping into conclusions๐Ÿ˜Š

Originally posted by Quixotic5



Oh well, Hello there fellow Mallu !...๐Ÿ˜Š...u know, i recently found out that Roshni too is a Malayali..๐Ÿ˜Š...nothing surprising there, Keralites are all over the world !..๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜›...anyways, so a Hindu who is not that fond of Hinduism & a Mallu who doesnt agree with Kerala culture either..strange..๐Ÿ˜•...to know how i feel "Marumakkathayam" influenced Kerala culture please go through my previous post...


Marumakkathayam has indeed influenced Kerala culture .It is because of that and many other factors,women in kerala enjoys a better status than other parts of India..But  it has not influenced patriachal culture much.
I'll say an example to make things clear.In my family all females are equally qualified as males but no matter how badly the women want to have a successful career, men always have a final say in whether they should work or not .But it's not so the other way around
Another example>> my grandfather is the head of the family and he'll have a final say in all family matters..and when he dies, it's always the next eldest male and not my grandmother.
Now that's how a patriarchal society functions .Education and women empowerment might have helped to reduce its intensity ,but every household here is more or less the same .
Edited by QuietlyLoud - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by QuietlyLoud


First of all just because your views are different from mine,that doesn't make me a  hindu who doesn't like hinduism or a keralite who doesn't know kerala culture. You have to respect others views like they respect yours, instead of jumping into conclusions๐Ÿ˜Š


Marumakkathayam has indeed influenced Kerala culture .It is because of that and many other factors,women in kerala enjoys a better status than other parts of India..But  it has not influenced patriachal culture much.
I'll say an example to make things clear.In my family all females are equally qualified as males but no matter how badly the women want to have a successful career, men always have a final say in whether they should work or not .But it's not so the other way around
Another example>> my grandfather is the head of the family and he'll have a final say in all family matters..and when he dies, it's always the next eldest male and not my grandmother.
Now that's how a patriarchal society functions .Education and women empowerment might have helped to reduce its intensity ,but every household here is more or less the same .

Wow...
Well I'm not mallu but I've tonnes of malayalee friends and I go to Kerala every year. So that is one culture I'm pretty familiar with and I agree with you regarding the patriarchal structure.
The state has really enviable stats regarding working women and literacy, but I thought those were very much due to the communist rule, and unlike my state, it keeps changing every year. ๐Ÿ˜›
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by Quixotic5



yes the matriarchy in Kerala is majorly based on matrilineal  inheritance, a concept known as "Marumakkathayam"..but y "only"?...is it a matter of such humble importance.?... but its more than just "matrilineal inheritance", the "Marumakkathayam" system in itself gave birth to a lot of worthy ideologies in Kerala Hindu Society-

1. Female foeticide is the lowest in Kerala because unlike other states in India, Kerala has a general belief that it is the daughter & not the son per se who carries forward the generation..
2. Daughters have special place in Hindu Kerala society, it is seen as an extremely satisfying & honorable thing to raise a daughter & see her well settled in life of luxury.
3. A Daughter's education unlike other states in India has always been & continues to be of utmost importance.
4.Daughters are not encouraged to sit behind walls of their home but to go out & prove their worth either in the field of education or in the field of arts but ofcourse its done under strict watch of the parents.
5. Parents are generally partial towards daughters ( double standards) even in simple matters of life besides inheritence..
6. There is a "Tarvadu" system in Kerala which is somewhat similar to "Khandaan" ..a child is given its father's first name as its last name but its "Tarvadu" or "Khandaan" name or "sir name" is that of the mother..

So no, Kerala Hindu Society does not follow the patriarchal structure like the rest of the Hindu communities or better yet , like the rest of the world..it has always been an exception there...however, giving freedom to the girls does not mean they are allowed to roam around & party at night, bcoz with every form of liberty given to the daughters, parents make sure that their daughters r well secured & away from dangerous situations.. 

 
This is your culture so you'd know better of course.
But I do know a thing or two about Kerala society too since I visit the place almost every year.
And my best friend is a Nair, we talk about society and culture and status of women all the time.
And according to him, Kerala's matriarchal society is a hypocrisy.  His words, don't hold it against me. ๐Ÿ˜›
And I have observed that matrilineal inheritance does little to better the status of women in Kerala. And it doesn't cover the Hindu society as a whole. Only the Nairs, who are handful.

Yes the statistics are enviable and makes me wish we had it in our state.

But I wonder how much of it is due to the HIndu Nair customs. From my findings I see it has more to do with the communist reforms in the state (which worked very well in Kerala given its demography and the fact that it is a much smaller state but failed in WB- my state)

Also with due respect to your culture, Kerala society is very much in the clutches of patriarchy, like the rest of the regions in India. And I've seen it for myself. I've been to almost every part of Kerala, be it Cochin, Kottayam, Calicut, Thrissur, Alleppey,Wayanad because I've friends in all of these places and nowhere I found the society that you describe. Neither among Hindus, nor Christians nor Muslims. I've seen how daughters are treated (my own friends) and the parents are certainly not partial to the daughters. They are just like how parents should be. But nothing like they regard bringing up daughters as extremely satisfying like you say. ๐Ÿ˜› I've seen the eagerness of parents to marry off their daughters when they turn twenty-two, twenty-three. Happened/happening with almost all my friends. I've witnessed discrimination based on caste, religion, skin colour too. Not accepting a daughter's choice of life partner because he is too dark is also patriarchy. 

Daughters are asked to get married after their BA/MA while the son is sent for  MBA after B.Tech.

Daughters are discouraged many a time to go out of the state to study. My classmate was coerced into marriage in exchange of her parents allowing her to get a Ph.d.

I'm sure there are exceptions. But the picture you painted is not true either.

Even the malayalee women I've as friends don't believe that they have this kind of freedom or respect. They feel stifled at home and don't want to leave the campus. They all received higher education, but along with that came the parental pressure to get married too. Two of my classmates got married last summer.

I know of Tharavadu and also the history of the Nairs which has its roots in the sexual exploitation of  the Nair women by the Brahmins.

And lastly, I think respect is allowing the daughter to choose if she wants to party at night or stay at home. Also I don't think partying all night denotes modernity or staying at home stands for adherence to traditional values. We choose to think that these are the binaries.
And again, Kerala doesn't really have a very urban space too where women do these things. Even in Trivandrum, the capital city, I found very few women on the streets around 9 in the night.

I respect the Kerala society for a lot of other things- the films, art, literature, the intelligentsia, and simply because Kerala is my second home and I love the food. In fact I feel at home more in Kerala than my own hometown, but those reasons, my friend, are not entirely founded upon the facts and exaggerated.

Just my observations. Please do not be offended. ๐Ÿ˜Š

-Rini




Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by -bLEu98-



 
This is your culture so you'd know better of course.
But I do know a thing or two about Kerala society too since I visit the place almost every year.
And my best friend is a Nair, we talk about society and culture and status of women all the time.
And according to him, Kerala's matriarchal society is a hypocrisy.  His words, don't hold it against me. ๐Ÿ˜›
And I have observed that matrilineal inheritance does little to better the status of women in Kerala. And it doesn't cover the Hindu society as a whole. Only the Nairs, who are handful.

Yes the statistics are enviable and makes me wish we had it in our state.

But I wonder how much of it is due to the HIndu Nair customs. From my findings I see it has more to do with the communist reforms in the state (which worked very well in Kerala given its demography and the fact that it is a much smaller state but failed in WB- my state)

Also with due respect to your culture, Kerala society is very much in the clutches of patriarchy, like the rest of the regions in India. And I've seen it for myself. I've been to almost every part of Kerala, be it Cochin, Kottayam, Calicut, Thrissur, Alleppey,Wayanad because I've friends in all of these places and nowhere I found the society that you describe. Neither among Hindus, nor Christians nor Muslims. I've seen how daughters are treated (my own friends) and the parents are certainly not partial to the daughters. They are just like how parents should be. But nothing like they regard bringing up daughters as extremely satisfying like you say. ๐Ÿ˜› I've seen the eagerness of parents to marry off their daughters when they turn twenty-two, twenty-three. Happened/happening with almost all my friends. I've witnessed discrimination based on caste, religion, skin colour too. Not accepting a daughter's choice of life partner because he is too dark is also patriarchy. 

Daughters are asked to get married after their BA/MA while the son is sent for  MBA after B.Tech.

Daughters are discouraged many a time to go out of the state to study. My classmate was coerced into marriage in exchange of her parents allowing her to get a Ph.d.

I'm sure there are exceptions. But the picture you painted is not true either.

Even the malayalee women I've as friends don't believe that they have this kind of freedom or respect. They feel stifled at home and don't want to leave the campus. They all received higher education, but along with that came the parental pressure to get married too. Two of my classmates got married last summer.

I know of Tharavadu and also the history of the Nairs which has its roots in the sexual exploitation of  the Nair women by the Brahmins.

And lastly, I think respect is allowing the daughter to choose if she wants to party at night or stay at home. Also I don't think partying all night denotes modernity or staying at home stands for adherence to traditional values. We choose to think that these are the binaries.
And again, Kerala doesn't really have a very urban space too where women do these things. Even in Trivandrum, the capital city, I found very few women on the streets around 9 in the night.

I respect the Kerala society for a lot of other things- the films, art, literature, the intelligentsia, and simply because Kerala is my second home and I love the food. In fact I feel at home more in Kerala than my own hometown, but those reasons, my friend, are not entirely founded upon the facts and exaggerated.

Just my observations. Please do not be offended. ๐Ÿ˜Š

-Rini




Are you kidding or what? ๐Ÿ˜†Its hard to believe you are not a malayali!!You speak as if you have lived here all your life...Were you studying kerala culture or something?๐Ÿ˜†
I was born and brought up at Trivandrum and I've either traveled or lived in all other districts and I agree everything you said๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ
Edited by QuietlyLoud - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by QuietlyLoud


Are you kidding or what? ๐Ÿ˜†Its hard to believe you are not a malayali!!You speak as if you have lived here all your life...Were you studying kerala culture or something?๐Ÿ˜†
I was born and brought up at Trivandrum and I've either traveled or lived in all other districts and I agree everything you said๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ
Lived with malayalee friends, roomies- they passed it all on to me. Also Kerala society is unique in many ways so I was always interested in knowing it. And I'm very fond of Malayalam films. Hence.
And Bengalis and Malayalees are similar in many ways too. I feel so.

 I hope what you said is not sarcasm and I didn't hurt your sentiments. ๐Ÿ˜Š
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by -bLEu98-


Lived with malayalee friends, roomies- they passed it all on to me. Also Kerala society is unique in many ways so I was always interested in knowing it. And I'm very fond of Malayalam films. Hence.
And Bengalis and Malayalees are similar in many ways too. I feel so.

 I hope what you said is not sarcasm and I didn't hurt your sentiments. ๐Ÿ˜Š
@bold Of course not ๐Ÿ˜†I was just genuinely surprised :) 
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by QuietlyLoud


First of all just because your views are different from mine,that doesn't make me a  hindu who doesn't like hinduism or a keralite who doesn't know kerala culture. You have to respect others views like they respect yours, instead of jumping into conclusions๐Ÿ˜Š

Yup !!... everybody is entitled to have an opinion...๐Ÿ˜Š


Marumakkathayam has indeed influenced Kerala culture .It is because of that and many other factors,women in kerala enjoys a better status than other parts of India..But  it has not influenced patriachal culture much.
I'll say an example to make things clear.In my family all females are equally qualified as males but no matter how badly the women want to have a successful career, men always have a final say in whether they should work or not .But it's not so the other way around
Another example>> my grandfather is the head of the family and he'll have a final say in all family matters..and when he dies, it's always the next eldest male and not my grandmother.
Now that's how a patriarchal society functions .Education and women empowerment might have helped to reduce its intensity ,but every household here is more or less the same .

A purist matriarchal society is ofcourse non - existent ...

But yeah a lot of my observations were based on my family & relatives where everybody treats daughters like precious gems & r least bothered with what their sons r upto.. while the same predicament could b considered as bias towards sons , it can also b viewed as bias towards daughters...depends on how one takes things...

I firmly believe that definition of "feminism" is also very subjective...while most girls today might feel that the extra care taken by parents when it comes to their marriage n stuff as injustice, there r girls who r only too happy to delegate this responsibility to their parents...i agree that parents here r paranoid when it comes to security of girls, they take care of things for their daughter's security..but the same predicament is viewed as an interference in the daughter's independent choices..

Also, Anjali, atleast in my family daughters & women in general are never discouraged by the men to pursue their ambitions & goals..in fact, it is seen as a matter of pride if the girl is educated & employed..my aunt & uncle r business partners..and my aunt usually is the dominent one.. after my grandfather passed away, my grandma is the head decision maker..she had a say even when grandpa was alive..in my family ,everybody is obsessed with my little sister's education & future prospects...n its the same with my cousin sisters too..i never understood it when compared with other states in India.. but later i found out that it has its roots in the fact that in Kerala Hindu Society daughters & not sons are seen as the one that carries forward the generation, something that has its roots in "Marumakkathayam".. 

Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by -bLEu98-


Lived with malayalee friends, roomies- they passed it all on to me. Also Kerala society is unique in many ways so I was always interested in knowing it. And I'm very fond of Malayalam films. Hence.
And Bengalis and Malayalees are similar in many ways too. I feel so.

 I hope what you said is not sarcasm and I didn't hurt your sentiments. ๐Ÿ˜Š

@ bold... that is so true...up until now, i thought i was the only one who thought so...๐Ÿ˜Š
Posted: 9 years ago
@ blue98 (Rini)
nope..not offended...๐Ÿ˜Š

n also, FYI ur friend is only reiterating the words of Malayalam actor Prithviraj when he said "Matriarchy is the biggest hypocrisy of Kerala"...๐Ÿ˜†

that statement is true in a way bcoz as mentioned earlier a purist matriarchy is non existent...

however, i do want to point out that ur repeated insinuations that only Nairs follow this custom is FALSE !

I am a Thiyya (somewhat like kshatriya in north Indian terms), and in my grandma's time Marumakkathyam was followed in my dad's family... but by the time my dad got married , this custom was almost abolished but the traces r still there..

Tarvadu system is not related to Nairs exclusively, every family has a Tarvadu, it is as simple as that..

Moreover, the situations & injustice that u put forth with respect to daughters in Kerala is not exclusively reserved for daughters, sons too r expected to follow the same pattern ( that "dark skin" case is of course an isolated incident, didnt make much sense to me)...the only difference being, daughters r expected to get married early 20s whereas sons r expected to get married in late 20s or early 30s..

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