Doubts & Discussions about HP book Series - Page 4

Posted: 9 years ago
My Second doubt
Book 3

Through out the book we believed Sirius was a murderer/traitor.
All the Characters including Remus Lupin believd the same.

It is really undigestable fact that Lupin didn't mention to anyone or  Most importnly to Dumbly that Sirius was Animagus. And he is breaking into Hogwarts as a dog..

The reason he gave is

"All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me... and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it... so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along"

Was Lupin really More scared of admitting his 'betrayal' To Dumbly than Harry's safety??
So many incidents suggested that Sirius was after Harry.. attack on Fat lady..breaking into dorm with knife.

Didnt Remus feel afraid of loosing Harry?? 
Juz suppose if sirius was traitor.. he wud hv killed harry Easily.. what then? 
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by iluvOriginals


My Second doubt
Book 3

Through out the book we believed Sirius was a murderer/traitor.
All the Characters including Remus Lupin believd the same.

It is really undigestable fact that Lupin didn't mention to anyone or  Most importnly to Dumbly that Sirius was Animagus. And he is breaking into Hogwarts as a dog..

The reason he gave is

"All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me... and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me. He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am. And so I convinced myself that Sirius was getting into the school using dark arts he learned from Voldemort, that being an Animagus had nothing to do with it... so, in a way, Snape's been right about me all along"

Was Lupin really More scared of admitting his 'betrayal' To Dumbly than Harry's safety??
So many incidents suggested that Sirius was after Harry.. attack on Fat lady..breaking into dorm with knife.

Didnt Remus feel afraid of loosing Harry?? 
Juz suppose if sirius was traitor.. he wud hv killed harry Easily.. what then? 

 
@ Bold : Apparently YES !!..and look what it led to !- even MORE guilt & confessions !

The way I see it, JKR had designed certain characters like Remus Lupin & Severus Snape in such a way that they had "Tragic Fate" written all over them since childhood no matter what, owing to different-different reasons..While Snape was destined to be deprived of love forever, Remus was destined to live in guilt forever ..

Coming to Remus, yes, it was cowardly of Remus to not have revealed Sirius's Animagus secret to Dumbly out of fear of falling out of Dumbly's good book..however, i think we are being too harsh on him if we maintain such an unidirectional approach..lets consider the context once again, the guilt of betraying Dumbly was something that Lupin had kept bottled up inside his heart for a long long time since his Hogwarts days, he felt that he led his friends into being Animagus for his selfish reasons & thus betrayed Dumly's trust who brought Lupin into Hogwarts with great personal risk..and say what you might, i personally feel that such bottled up feelings are hard to confront, just as it was difficult for Snape to face his worst memories pertaining to James's bullying & Lily's death that he preferred to never talk about it..moreover, i think Lupin may have been secretly hoping or atleast hoping to believe that Serius might not actually hurt Harry even though all the evidences suggested otherwise..but ofcourse those are just assumed excuses (which works well for me)..and it all again comes down to just one fact, "guilt" is inseparable part of being Remus Lupin, be it during his childhood days, or be it when he married Tonks or was about to get married, or when Tonks was expecting..etc & so on..I think good people like Lupin ( like Harry) have a rather unfortunate tendency to blame themselves for everything..moreover,look at the quoted lines from the book in the above quoted post,he is finding every possible way to put the blame on himself (well, in this case atleast he was partially right to put the blame on himself), but its just too much to take when so much of self-blame is presented in one go (but that does not mean I forgave Dumbly when he indulged in 'self-blame' in the afterlife at King's Cross Station 😡)..my feelings about Lupin in this perticular scene is a little less "blaming", in other words, i held him less "accountable" in this context as compared to Harry when he led his friends into Voldy's trap in OoTP out of pure heroic stupidity.. 

I for once was glad that Remus did not go on & on about 'guilt' when his ghostly self appeared after Harry finally used the resurrection stone, i felt that JKR finally gave him a 'guilt-less' closure eventhough his son was now an orphan..it was so unexpected that he didnt indulge in any form of "self-blaming" in this final scene and i was HAPPY about it !..😊   
Posted: 9 years ago
In book half blood prince, dumbledore says that slughorn have antidote to veritaserum. (ch.Sluggish Memory)
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by CoerCorash


In book half blood prince, dumbledore says that slughorn have antidote to veritaserum. (ch.Sluggish Memory)

Yes indeed there is an antidote to veritaserum : 
Moreover, there is a defence against "Legilimency" known as "Occlumency"
"Harry Potter: "...you don't need me- you could use Legilimency...or Veritaserum..."
Albus Dumbledore: "Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard who will be expecting both. He is much more accomplished at Occlumency than poor Morfin Gaunt, and I would be astonished if he has not carried an antidote to Veritaserum with him ever since I coerced him into giving me this travesty of a recollection."
Albus Dumbledore and Harry Potter discussing ways of getting Horace Slughorn to give them the true memory.[src]

An antidote to Veritaserum exists to counteract the effects of the said truth serumProfessor Horace Slughornwas said to have kept one with him during the 1996-1997 school year, ever since Albus Dumbledore tried to persuade him to divulge a memory that Slughorn was too ashamed to give."


But that still doesnt answer my question.. an antidote or defence against a strategy is barely an excuse to justify its total absence from the magical judiciary system.. moreover, i feel that the whole Dumbledore- Slughorn context has more to do with Dumbly's lack of interest in forcefully coercing the memory out of Slughorn ..but prisoners or convicts barely qualify for such gentle treatment..also, who is to say all them carry an antidote or are able Occluments like Slughorn?..and even if they did carry an antidote, they could be strip searched properly as is customery with convicts & waited till the effects of the antidote wears off.. 
Posted: 9 years ago
In GoF it's explained that during Barty Crauch Sr.'s time as cheaf warlock (judge), there weren't proper trials, veritaserum was'nt used and trials were conducted hastily, (sirius black was even thrown in to jail without trial!)
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by CoerCorash


In GoF it's explained that during Barty Crauch Sr.'s time as cheaf warlock (judge), there weren't proper trials, veritaserum was'nt used and trials were conducted hastily, (sirius black was even thrown in to jail without trial!)

I believe you are referring to Barty Crouch Sr.'s insane obsession to convict as many death eaters as possible since he wanted it to be done quickly as he believed brutality can be countered with brutality.. i do agree with Barty Crouch Sr.'s sentiments to certain extent, however, during such trails things like Veritaserum could have played even a bigger role in smoothing out the entire trail process.. it is exactly what i was getting at, since the trials were hasty during those times, use of Veritaserum could have eliminated the possibility of errors in the judgement of the Ministry to a great extent..

But just to be clear, are you saying that its specifically mentioned in the 4th book that things like Veritaserum werent used during Barty Sr's time since the trials were hasty? bcoz then that would mean that Veritaserum is indeed used during trials in magical world except during Barty Crouch Sr's time..if that is the case, then u have successfully answered my question..but if the mention of veritaserum in this context is purely an extension of the facts mentioned in the book then the question still stays..
Edited by Quixotic5 - 9 years ago
Posted: 9 years ago
In book HBP, after watching elf hockey's memory, dumbly says something like ministry didnt bothered to further investigate death of rich lady, like using veritaserum, because the elf confessed. This indicates that the potion's used for investigation.
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by CoerCorash


In book HBP, after watching elf hockey's memory, dumbly says something like ministry didnt bothered to further investigate death of rich lady, like using veritaserum, because the elf confessed. This indicates that the potion's used for investigation.
So that effectively puts one of my questions to rest.. thank you..😊
It is clear now that things like Veritaserum & Legilimency are not absent in magical judiciary system..
However, it is not clear why such tactics were practically absent during death eater's conviction after Voldy's first fall or during Harry's trail in OoTP.. the fact that everything was wrapped up hastily during death eater's conviction after the first wizarding war only necessitated the use of magical means like Veritaserum for speedy & more justified judgments & not the other way round..the absence of such magical means could have only hindered a speedy & proper judgement.. moreover, what about Harry's trial in OoTP ?.. such tactics were never even suggested there & they had full blown trial for this petty law breaking..agreed that ministry was only trying their best to convict Harry , so they themselves would not have suggested it but Dumbledore or Harry certainly could have..
Posted: 9 years ago
They have a "wittness"! Mrs. Figgs! And that is enough for harry to come out clean. And may be thats why dumbledore dont give idea of veritaseram to ministry.
Posted: 9 years ago
Originally posted by CoerCorash


They have a "wittness"! Mrs. Figgs! And that is enough for harry to come out clean. And may be thats why dumbledore dont give idea of veritaseram to ministry.
I see what you did there ..😆.. "since they had a witness they won the case so they had no use of Veritaserum"..but i was actually ranting about how quickly the trial could have been wrapped up even before the witness was presented..the ministry tried a great deal to intimidate Harry before clearing him out of all charges & all of this could have been avoided if the trial just started and ended with Veritaserum.. the question of witness came in when the Ministry raised doubts on Harry's claim about Dementors being spotted in Little Whinging.. and even with Mrs Figg as a witness there was still a lot of tension.. my question basically was why use Veritaserum as a last resort when the case can be dismissed within few seconds by employing this basic tactic ?  

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